The Christ of arminianism

I love your handle. You are doing a fine job of defending your position. It is my prayer that you will not be banned. With folks like you defending your positon, it makes it so much easier on myself, and folks of my theological bent. Grace and peace

 

Well...I mean...if you have books, how can I argue with that? I only have the Holy Spirit!

Yes. Please show where the words "free will" are found together in the Bible. Remember, I'm not a calvinist (nor an arminian) and I do believe in the responsibility of man, but the phrase "free will" is NOT found in Scripture.

Numerous time, matter of fact. Me thinks if someone has truly read the Bible and believes the phrase "free will" is found in the Bible, that someone has either been dishonest, or is reading from the MIV (my eisegesis versioin).

No, God says the Bible teaches it. It's heretical to even state God is not sovereign. If God is not sovereign, you are?!? That's heresy. If you believe that, I don't serve the same God as you do.

How can my comments about Finney be all "lies"...when I didn't even comment on Finney? You're losing it...

:laugh: You are kidding...I hope. Please show where "free will" is a Bible "term". Is it found in Opinions 3:1?

Rick Warren believes God is sovereign. You don't. I don't think I will ever take any of your advice. Enjoy your short stay here on the BB. With your attitude I would say you will last a few weeks before getting banned. :wavey:

 

beloved, you and arminius are polar opposites, each being "hyper" in their own theology bent.

 

This may have been a trick question (space between free and will?)
Here are some verses that speak of freewill offerings (and one that mentions people actually having "their own freewill":

Leviticus 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

Leviticus 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Leviticus 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Leviticus 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Numbers 15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:

Numbers 29:39 These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.

Deuteronomy 12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

Deuteronomy 12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:

Deuteronomy 16:10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

Deuteronomy 23:23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

2 Chronicles 31:14 And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.

Ezra 1:4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.

Ezra 3:5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

(Wow! Freewill and decree contained in the same verse! Obviously the reformed folk are going to point out these are the words of Artaxerxes, and he may have been mistaken in thinking men actually have "their own freewill".)

Ezra 7:16 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:

Ezra 8:28 And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the LORD; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

Psalms 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

 

" God said "I'm going to create a bunch of folks. I'm going to create a Group A, and a Group B. I'm going to save everyone in Group A, but those I place in Group B are doomed. OK."

And according to Group A, 90% of God's production line will be defective and end up in Hell. Either God needs a better designer or Hell is the objective and Heaven are the rejects.

 

His grace for Group A only. If the Group A Group B info I posted is true, as "beloved57" says it is, then it seems that there would be no need for anyone to believe. It would seem that even a concept of God would not be necessary. Sovereign God would simply welcome home those he chose before the foundation of the world. It would be fairly easy here to slide off into the frequently heard criticism of OSAS. Those in Group A don't need to worry about how they live, since they are saved. OSAS!! But wait!! According to some on this board, they can, of their own free will <shudder> depart from the faith -- but but but -- how would that be possible since they are chosen? Wow! We can't have it both ways, can we? I'm chosen, but I can choose to be unchosen! I'm saved no matter what, but I can choose to be unsaved!! Amazing!! Why would I want to check out of being saved? Wait -- wait!! God can also zap me even though I'm chosen because I don't endure to the end!! In essence, I've zapped myself. But if I don't even need to believe, how can I zap myself from something I don't believe?

BELOVED57!!!! Where are you???? Help me out here!!!! Go from red to blue, please!!!! Hello????raying:
Martin! Scarlett! Amy! Helen! Help!! I'm being overwhelmed by knowledge!!

 

Thank you blammo, but it was much more amusing to listen to webdog deny the term Free-will being in Scripture, and claiming he had read it through "many" times. I wonder if he was reading the Reformed Standard Version, where all those kinds of "troubling" passages are expunged--you know, to help us out of our Arminian "confusion". :laugh:

As for the "Sovereignty of God" business, I love saying "God is not Sovereign" because it bothers the Calvinists so. If they were consistent, nothing I say would bother them; for the "Sovereign" Lord is MAKING ME say such things, because He is "Sovereign" and IN TOTAL CONTROL of everything. Why do you resist God? I am here by the predestined will of God to utter these things. They should rejoice and submit to His "Sovereign" will for me to post here and contradict and refute them from Scripture. This can't be happening without His "will"! Why, that would be heresy and exalting man's will above God's! No no, I'm here because the Lord has irresistibly drawn me here and makes me type these things. Why do they bother you? My "sinful" posts "glorify" the "Sovereign" Lord. Ease up kiddies!

I guess Calvinism cannot be worked out practically by the Calvinists. They preach Calvinism, but act like Arminians. Their instincts are better than their minds.

The Bible teaches God is Creator and Sustainer of all things--He upholds them all by the Word of His power. NOWHERE DOES IT SAY He controls everything. Such sentiments are simply not true. The whole Bible reveals that THE FATHER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH made children IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS--beings that have a will, like he does, and He gave them authority over earth, that they gave it to the Devil, and are subject to this "god". The Lord SOLVED the problem with the Cross and is calling us OUT OF this mess, which is doomed to destruction and Fire. That is when He will take CONTROL of things back here. Until then, He is mercifully and patiently allowing men to come and dine with Him, not willing that ANY should perish, but that all repent. So He forbears judgment, seeking the salvation of all instead. What a glorious God and Saviour we have!

The way the Bible teaches any kind of Sovereignty is through the above understanding, and also that Judgment Day is coming. The Lord has the last word and total control over what happens to every human being, but He Sovereignty made it so they will choose whom they will serve. That is His REAL "sovereign" arrangement, and the Calvinists don't like what God really did. They are the ones who really DO NOT BELIEVE in the "Sovereignty" of God, unless THEY get to define what it is, rather than God Himself. How ironic.

 

Yes, it was a trick question. Someone who argues for "free will" should know that it is only used as "freewill" in Scripture. Obviously, someone doesn't know that, though.
I also think that the space between can be significant. Notice...

Definitions of freewill on the Web:

• [SIZE=-1]done of your own accord; "a freewill offering"
  wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
• Free will is the philosophical doctrine that holds that our choices are ultimately up to ourselves. The phrase "up to ourselves" is vague, and, just like free will itself, admits of a variety of interpretations. Because of this ambiguity, the utility of the concept of free will is questioned by some. Several logically independent questions can be asked about free will.
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freewill[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]We can do things of our own accord (freewill), but we cannot attain salvation over a sovereign God on our own (free will) if you just so happen to believe in a sovereign God, unlike arminius.[/SIZE]

 

And yet you do not supply Scripture stating man has "free will" in the sense you are saying he does. Surprising...(well, not really)

 

I knew it was a trick question. You are a lot smarter than I am, I have learned much from you, and I knew you wouldn't make such a mistake.

 

Webdog saith:

Nice attempt as SHIFTING. I did not say "Scripture stating man has "free will", I said Freewill or Free-will is a Bible term, and "Sovereignty of God" is not. I am correct, and you are not. Now you are trying to shift it to certain definitions. Nice try, but first you need to hubmly ADMIT that freewill IS IN FACT a Bible term. That would be basic honesty.

Then we can discuss the meanings of "freewill", free and will! It will be amusing to see you stumble all over these plain words and the concepts they communicate. You really must have a problem with Lev 1:2, where God Himself says man has his "own voluntary will"! Try and escape that Divine utterance! Tell us how OWN and voluntary DO NOT MEAN man has HIS OWN will apart from God, and can obey or disobey accordingly. I'm all ears.

 

Arminius, I am not a Calvinist, but I do know that God is sovereign. The word means that God has the absolute right to do all things according to His good pleasure. (Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary) I believe that includes giving a free will to all people to choose or reject Him.

Joshua 24:15 (New King James Version)
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Sovereignty of God
Romans 9:15-18 (New King James Version)
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

1 Timothy 6:15 (New King James Version)
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,


Revelation 4:11 (New King James Version)
11 “ You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”

 

Well Amy, understand that it all depends on what we mean by that Phrase. It is used as a baton to beat non-Calvinists into submission. They have hijacked that term and imposed their own unBiblical doctrine upon it. God most surely IS NOT "sovereign" the way they mean it.

The Lord is not "Sovereign" enough to lie, sin or be contrary to the way He truly is--love. He acts in consistency with His character and attributes. Calvinists say He has the right to act contrary to His nature. Such is impossible.

As for Romans 9, it does not teach Calvinism. It all depends on the application. Romans 9 is about THE NATION of Israel. God has a right to use nations, or even people like Pharoah to make His power known, or even bring Messiah into the world without being obligated to such people or nations for anything.

You see, the Jews were quite presumptous and thought God HAD TO save them all because they were Jews and if the Gospel is true, they brought Him into the world. Paul says NOT SO, the way in is FAITH, through grace, not by the flesh or man's desire. Just as God made His name and Power known through Pharoah, so He also did through the Jews. Niether had a claim upon God's mercy BECAUSE OF THAT. Paul later explains that the only way to have a claim upon God's mercy is by faith, which acknowledges our sin and unworthiness, and Christ's great sacrifice for us. The Cross is a humbling thing. Men think because God used them in some way, they are "in". God says NO, you enter by the way of my Son, or you will perish, even if I use you like Cyrus mine anointed to rebuild the city of Jerusalem. Cyrus had no more claim to God's mercy becasue he rebuilt jerusalme either. If he did not believe and obey the Law and the prophets, all the good he did the Jews cannot help nor save him.

Such is the argument of Romans 9. Calvinists stop at verse 23, rather than continue on through to chapter 12, which is the whole train of thought. Notice verses 30-33 of chapter 9:

9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after
righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the
righteousness which is of faith.
9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not
attained to the law of righteousness.
9:32 Wherefore? (Paul asks WHY did the Gentiles get mercy and not most Jews. This would be a perfect place to assert Calvinistic reasons, and yet the opposite is declared!)
Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by
the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of
offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Now if the Jews who did not believe were reprobated by God(chosen for damnationin eternity past, Paul could never have said the following) :

11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the
Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my
flesh, and might save some of them.
11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,
what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be
holy, so are the branches.
11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild
olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of
the root and fatness of the olive tree;
11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not
the root, but the root thee.
11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be
graffed in.
11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest
by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also
spare not thee.
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which
fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his
goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in:
for God is able to graff them in again.
11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature,
and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how
much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed
into their own olive tree?

All five points of Calvinism collapse here. Starting with OSAS, which Paul denies, and warns us Gentiles that we too could be cut off from God if we do not continue by faith, for only by faith we stand. It is not a "given", nor is it automatic. And the other points fall from there. If the Jews can be graffed back in if they would just believe, and Paul tried to get some to do so, then they are not predestined to be reprobate! They can get on the Gospel train anytime they wish! They simply have to admit they cannot save themslves with the works of the law(a hard thing for a jew to admit), and to believe on His Son, trusting only in Him for salvation.

Romans 9-11 is ironically so Arminian. All 5 points of Calvinism are exposed there. That is why Calvinist apologist like John Piper write entire books on romans 9:1-23 only--so they can take it out of context and turn it on its head. When you continue reading, you realize the truth--the context is the nation, and its presumptions, and that they can be saved if they will humble themsleves and believe. No Eternal Decrees here!

 

Wasn't this discussed already?

Dear Arminius,

I thought the church discussed your views (and rejected them) 400 years ago.

FOS

PS -- If you take the time to peruse the boards, you will see a lot of the debate between the two positions. Though the debate can be heated, it is usually done with certain degree of respect for the other party. Though I will disagree with my Arminian brothers & sisters, I do recognize they are indeed my brothers & sisters. God's best, fos.

 

Nice try, but as blammo has shown, free-will is not even a biblical term. Try freewill...