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The Church and The Great Commission

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Aug 1, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I have never indicated otherwise. :D
     
  2. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Amen! For earthly churches, but we do join that One church, the Church God, so as you say the earthly church is secondary, to be with those whose belief is close to ours.

    You seem to discern much of what you read. Most just take what has been put before them in church sermons and Sunday school. The verses referred to, Matthew 28:19, 20 point to missionary work indeed for the Apostles to evangelize the world to the gospel of John the Baptist of “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins” for the kingdom is at hand. And you correctly recognize in the “great commission” call to teach and baptize people according to the gospel that John preached to the nation of Israel, as did Jesus. But is this the Christian message that we spread today, and are correct in spreading?

    Do all hear, preach, teach, and believe that message today of John the Baptist, and that same gospel that Jesus preached on this earth, and most definitely instructed His Apostles to teach after His ascension, and after Pentecost? Do we really believe the “great commission” of Matthew, Mark, and Luke?

    Is that what Baptists believed of Old, and what they believe today? I have yet to hear one Baptist Preacher, Teacher, or Believer give credence to that part of the “great commission” referenced in Mark’s account. Paul put it nicely (Galatians 1:6-7) in his amazement of how soon the Galatians had turned from his gospel of grace to that other kind of gospel of legalism, which after all is not the gospel (good news). The law is not good news for those who live under its curse. James, Peter, John and the rest of the Jewish Pentecostal church gave no permission to the Judaizers (troublers) to go amongst the Gentile’s, and Jews of like faith saying they must follow Jewish customs, or ordnances.

    I personally do not believe our gospel today is to include the “great commission”, for I have yet to see anyone that can heal on demand, drink poison with no ill effects, cast out devils, or speak with new tongues that I can understand. Baptist would be much more effective with the “grace commission”, than trying to compete with the Catholic’s that really do believe the “great commission”, especially with their Pope in direct line from Peter (Ha! Ha!), of which we don’t have.

    I agree very much with you that the individual, which is in the Body of Christ, His Church, is what’s important.Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
     
  3. IveyLeaguer

    IveyLeaguer New Member

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    Interesting take, ituttut.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Is there anyone on this Forum who believes that God has ever dealt with His people other than through the manifestation of His Grace?

    If you do then please explain why God shed the first blood to make a provisional atonement for the sins if Adam and Eve.
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    ituttut

    You have made it quite clear to those who carefully read your posts that you do not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    As for your remaining remarks:

    1. Demons cast out: Acts 16:16-18

    16. And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
    17. The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
    18. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.



    2. Heal on demand: Acts 20:9-12

    9. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
    10. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
    11. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
    12. And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.



    3. Speaking in tongues, according to the Apostle Paul:

    1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

    1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:


    4. Poisonous snakes: Acts 28:3-5

    3. And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
    4. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
    5. And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.


    All these things were done by the Apostle Paul after your so-called "grace commission". How about that ituttut? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
     
  6. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Thanks, but it is not original. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  7. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    ituttut

    You have made it quite clear to those who carefully read your posts that you do not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    As for your remaining remarks:

    1. Demons cast out: Acts 16:16-18

    Would you not say you have a problem if you can’t do this?

    16. And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
    17. The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
    18. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.


    When is the last time you did this?


    2. Heal on demand: Acts 20:9-12

    9. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
    10. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
    11. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
    12. And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.


    Could Paul do this after his arriving in Rome?

    3. Speaking in tongues, according to the Apostle Paul:

    1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

    1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:


    4. Poisonous snakes: Acts 28:3-5

    3. And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
    4. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
    5. And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.


    All these things were done by the Apostle Paul after your so-called "grace commission". How about that ituttut? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]You show me your faith, and I’ll show you mine. The Power of the Holy Ghost was given to those of the Pentecostal church, and then to Paul with all full power, and then some of his Apostles and Disciples received some or one of those gifts. But this Power was given for the furtherance of the Gospels, or in other words to get the Show On The Road. Israel did not accept their King, and then they rejected the Holy Ghost, so the Powers began shifting to Paul for the beginning of the Christian church, and the Body of Christ Church.

    When God got Paul to Rome all of the miracles as such stopped, with the exception of “apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers”. And I believe after the last Apostles died, we are left with disciples, or perhaps as with Paul our great Missionaries.

    Do we have prophets today? I don’t know, but I don’t think so, for I believe the last of these must have been John, for we now know the “beginning from the end”.

    What we do know are the following. We have with us the Evangelists, the Pastors, and the Teachers. Do we need anything else? Today we are Once Saved, Always Saved, and that was unheard of and impossible before Christ Jesus spoke to a certain Apostle from heaven on the matter of Salvation for all, as He reconciles the World unto Himself.

    You show me your works, and I will show you my faith. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I have proven the above false on another thread but one passage will suffice to show that your beliefs are seriously flawed.

    John 10:26-30
    26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    30. I and my Father are one.


    Jesus Christ spoke these words while on earth! [​IMG]
     
  9. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    I have proven the above false on another thread but one passage will suffice to show that your beliefs are seriously flawed.

    John 10:26-30
    26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    30. I and my Father are one.


    Jesus Christ spoke these words while on earth! [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus says He give them eternal life, but show me where He says while you live. They were still doing blood sacrifices at the time Jesus was on this earth. They had to wait until they died, just like all that preceded them.

    Jesus knew His Father would raise Him from the dead. No one could be Once Saved Always Saved until after the shedding of His Blood on the Cross. Does James or Peter tell you all about OSAS, at the very moment you believe, by having the One Baptism done without hands"?

    Also please try to remember that Jesus said He did not come for the heathen dogs. Had you (I take it you are of heathen breed) or I lived in that day, Jesus would not have given us the time of day, unless it was for a specific purpose to have been recorded in scripture. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    ituttut

    you state:
    Can you enlighten all who read your posts as to the the difference between Jesus Christ giving eternal life and OSAS? By the way in what Scripture did Paul use the expresion OSAS? I believe that John's Gospel has more to say about this than Paul ever did.

    You also state
    That is flat out blasphemy and libelous. It was Jesus Christ who said in John 3:16-19:
    16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


    Come into the light ituttut before it is too late!
     
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    In MT 4:19 Jesus said, "Follow Me and I will make you . . ." In MT. 28:19, 20 he said to make disciples. In Acts 20 making disciples is a task the Holy Spirit has entrusted to believers not God.

    Something well worth reading is at http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm
     
  12. elijah_lives

    elijah_lives New Member

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    "I personally do not believe our gospel today is to include the “great commission”, for I have yet to see anyone that can heal on demand, drink poison with no ill effects, cast out devils, or speak with new tongues that I can understand."

    The several versions of the Bible that I read indicate that "the most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20", implying the corruption and adulteration of the original text...
     
  13. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Can you enlighten all who read your posts as to the the difference between Jesus Christ giving eternal life and OSAS? By the way in what Scripture did Paul use the expresion OSAS? I believe that John's Gospel has more to say about this than Paul ever did.

    Yes, Jesus said He gives eternal life, but when can He give it? Why didn’t Jesus give Peter eternal life instantly? Please read you Bible again, a little more closely this time. Luke 22:31-32, “And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.”[/I] Quote me some appropriate scripture son, and I will believe you. In the meantime please really mean it when you say you believe what Jesus said while on this earth.

    This should tell you that the Jew had to come byfaith and had to endure until the end, for they did not have the holding (sealing) power within themselves, and the animal’s blood could only cover them for a short time. They did not have the necessary Grace of God through faith to be Once Saved Always Saved. It was not offered to them, and could not possibly be done until it was offered.

    When is it that you find this fact of OSAS to be true? You hear it from Paul first. Nowhere does Jesus every say while on earth that anybody was saved instantly. Some believed, but they had to die first to gain the promise, while they were in the “holding” place.

    You also state
    That is flat out blasphemy and libelous. It was Jesus Christ who said in John 3:16-19:
    16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


    I believe what Jesus says above, and every other word attributed to Him in the Bible, and I wish you would too.

    I’ll not accuse you of blasphemy and libel, but only ignorance of His Word. Gentiles did not hear what Jesus said on this earth as to salvation, or very much of anything He said. He didn’t care at that time, for we were not His sheep while He was on earth.

    Jesus said to those of His to not give anything Holy to the dogs, Matthew 7:6. And where do we find out who the dogs are? We find that information in Matthew 15:26. So I would be careful if I were you throwing around that loose inappropriate language of judgment. Everyone word you speak without cause, you will be held accountable, especially to fellow Christians.

    Come into the light ituttut before it is too late!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Turn around, for you may be looking at that candle held by the angel of light, that prince of this world. We have to let go of him to have the joy, peace, liberty and freedom of our salvation. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    ituttut

    Jesus Christ tells Nicodemus in John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    He has told us heavenly things in the record of His earthly ministry, the four Gospels, and you believe not. I will repeat these Scripture once again but you will still not believe because you have been brainwashed by hyperdispensationalism.

    Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    These words by Jesus Christ are inclusive, the world, and promise everlasting life to whosoever believes in him. He had these words recorded for all humanity. Those who believe in Him were saved never to be lost. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.

    Jesus Christ further tells us in John 10:27-30

    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    30. I and my Father are one.


    Jesus Christ gives his sheep, those who believe in Him, eternal life. He further tells us that no man can pluck them out of His hand or out of His Father's hand. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.

    It is obvious that you do not believe these Scripture or you would not continue to prattle about Paul's gospel that Jesus Christ revealed to him from heaven. The Apostle Paul himself tells us in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Nothing there about the gospel of Paul. In fact he has told us earlier in Romans 1:1-3

    1. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    2. (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
    3. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord
    , which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


    Paul in this passage tells us that he was called to be an Apostle and separated unto the Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ. No mention of the gospel of Paul here. He later tells us in Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Here Paul tells us that he serves with his spirit the Gospel of God's Son. No mention of Paul's gospel here. Now how old is this Gospel of God or Jesus Christ, God the Son. The Apostle Paul tells us in Galatians 3:6-9

    6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


    Paul tells us that the Gospel was preached unto Abraham. What Gospel was preached unto Abraham? Paul knew only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He had earlier chastized the Galatians as follows in Galatians 1:6-9

    6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


    No mention of a gospel of Paul here only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What does Paul say should happen to those who preach anything other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Let him be accursed. I remind you again of what Paul states about the Gospel in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Now ituttut, you have prattled on and on that Jesus Christ did not teach Once Saved, Always Saved that only Paul did. I have shown you above for the second time that Jesus Christ taught the Eternal Security of the Believer or as you like to say OSAS. Could you show me the Scripture where Paul explicitely teaches OSAS? Frankly I always thought this was a Baptist perversion of the Biblical doctrine of the Eternal Security of the Believer [which Jesus Christ taught in John 10:27-30] or the Perseverance of the Saints [which Jesus Christ taught is Matthew 10:22; Revelation 2:10, 17, 22; and Revelation 3:21].
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Actually ituttut it was John the Baptist who first taught about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    Matthew 3:11 []I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:[/i]

    Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

    How about that???? :D
     
  16. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Now, now, OldRegular, you know I have answered this before as to Eternal Security of the Believer, but OSAS was not available to any until after Jesus Christ shed His blood.

    I believe you find OSAS in Philippians 2:12-13, ”So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13. for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.” We are to work out our own salvation, but cannot mean we are to try and save ourselves, for that is impossible. So when we are saved, we daily work at it for we are saved. We fight against this Old nature of ours that is in our Bodies, and we will never be able to over come this Old nature. So as our Spirit is in the Body of Christ, we know we must be Eternally Saved as we live. I Corinthians 6:15-17, ” Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid. 16. Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh. 17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.”

    I Corinthians 6:20 also puts its nicely, ”for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.” That gift we accepted from God is beyond price or measure, so being in the Spirit, we are to glorify God in these sinful bodies.

    If we believe we have been sealed into the Body of Christ, would that convince you? Ephesians 1:13, ”in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”.” Christian faith to you OldRegular, ituttut
     
  17. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Actually ituttut it was John the Baptist who first taught about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    Matthew 3:11 []I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:[/i]

    Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

    How about that???? :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]How about that. But does John tell you about OSAS, or was that Baptism the same after Christ had taught Paul his gospel?

    We all know John the Baptist first taught Jesus would baptize them in the Holy Spirit, and we see in Acts 1 where Jesus told the Apostles at Pentecost they would be baptized in the Holy Spirit. But even after this baptism, does it indicate being baptized into the Body of Christ, or being OSAS? They received the Power of the Holy Ghost. This is the “kingdom” baptism, and cannot be the same as we today for Peter was able to kill at will any that lied to the Holy Spirit, Acts 5:1-10. I wouldn’t call this being sealed into the Body of Christ Jesus.

    Also to not contradict, we have to point out Peter in Acts 2 preached to the nation of Israel another baptism that must be done, and they would have to repent, and they had to be water baptized for the remission of those sins.

    In other words they had to have two (2) baptisms, and nowhere with these two baptisms’ can we find they were immediately sealed in their salvation, or into the Body of Christ. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Poor, poor ituttut

    I posted this earlier on this thread but will post it again for your edification:

    Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    These words by Jesus Christ are inclusive, the world, and promise everlasting life to whosoever believes in him. He had these words recorded for all humanity. Those who believe in Him were saved never to be lost. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.

    Jesus Christ further tells us in John 10:27-30

    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    30. I and my Father are one.


    Jesus Christ gives his sheep, those who believe in Him, eternal life. He further tells us that no man can pluck them out of His hand or out of His Father's hand. That is the Eternal Security of the Believer or in Baptist parlance once saved always saved.
     
  19. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    And I answered this for you, but it is not given to you to see more than what you see, so you are to continue with what you see. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    And I answered this for you, but it is not given to you to see more than what you see, so you are to continue with what you see. Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]ituttut

    You have answered nothing!

    The only way you could answer is admit that you are wrong, repent of your false and blasphemous doctrine, and come into the light.
     
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