The Church as the Kingdom of God

Since we know that God's end in creating us was communion with
him (this is the essence of the Church: man's communion with God and
thus with one another), we can say that the Church is the purpose for
his creation.



God's communion with his creatures is the essence of creation..........
not the essence of the Catholic Church.

His creation consists of nonrobotic servants who have accepted
the terms of His offering. (Whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never
die) St.John 11:26 The mode of beliving may be criticized, but the end
result is a "church" of people who are the object of God's grace.

God did not offer salvation to a title of a denomination or to a visible organization.
He offered it to "whosoever" who can be and IS the object of his love. He
was not in love with a named gathering of people...He is in love with all of
creation.

Claiming favoritism of God's grace is what I experienced in the 2x2 (Cult .?).
They were very good at applying scriptures to fit the purpose of setting
themselves aside as the recipients of God's exclusive grace. Such an
action creates a disregard for the faith of others....a saving faith.

Try to connect the word (church) in the bible with known denominations.

It doesn't fit.

 

Acts 2:47

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord
added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Added to the Catholic Church daily...........? Hardly.

The Catholic Church had not been established in the heart of Ignatius yet.

 

Hey, you posted the words; I just took 'em as you presented them: You're proud of the work you've done, and you want people to see the work you're proud of. If you were simply inviting comments and criticisms, you wouldn't have posted those words.

 

Carson,
Except for the fact that I grew up in a ''church'' that has a large following
and who are so very exclusive (one true churchism).....I could quite possibly
fall for another church that makes like claims. Their extreme members are
bullheaded in their claims that only they originated from the teachings of Jesus.
There are many intelligent and upright members in their following. They are
right too. They are right in honoring God the creator of the universe and in
looking to Jesus for their salvation by grace through faith....which they do.

They are wrong in smug misconception that they are the ONLY heavenbound
believers in the world....with all others being deceived in their translation of the
bible and their method of worship. They would consider members of other
churches as worldly wolves in sheep's clothing who are walking the broad path
to destruction. They lay claim to carrying on the work and message of Jesus
in the correct form of home worship and sending their workers out in pairs.
That is biblical too...have to admit.

Carson, I'm saddened by the like claims of the Catholic Church in making them
selves into something that they are not. The message of the bible, the Good
News, the Gospel .....is not the creation of a visible method of worship.

John 6:38 quotes Jesus as saying He came down to do the Father's will.
verses 39 and 49....Jesus says the will of the Father is that everyone that
seeth the son and believes on him, may have everlasting life.

That is the Gospel, Carson. THAT is the Good News that deserves repeating.
That message can be spread without ever mentioning the name of a church....
let alone usurping ANY church to be some superior and mandatory form of a
worldly visible entity.

Verse 51 of John Chapter 6.....
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven..if any man eat
of this bread, he shall live forever..."

Follow that with verse 35....
"I am the bread of life; he that cometh to me shall never hunger and
he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

That recipe works outside of Catholicism as well as inside. I fear that too
much time is spent promoting a visible church with the LIVING BREAD
being ignored.

That makes me sad....for those involved in it and for their listeners.

 

Don:

I think you have Carson all wrong. He was not trying to be prideful or arrogant. You have to keep in mind that he is an Aggie (Texas A&M). He cant help it . Seriously, lighten up. There was nothing wrong with the way he presented it.

 

Carson,

See.....you responded with emphasis on how important the CAtholic
Church is.

That doesn't matter to me....doesn't affect my salvation.
There is salvation outside of the CAtholic Church too....and for the
same reason that there is salvation inside of that church.

The simple fact that some of it's members fulfill the works of God.
Some of them obviously don't fulfill that either....as in any church.

What are the works of God...?

St. John 6:28
"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Vs..29: "Jesus answered and said unto them "This is the work of God,
that ye believe on him whom he hasth sent."


You should be able to lose your church and still have salvation, Carson.
I have. The apostles did not have a church and many people that
Jesus associated with were saved. If you were a prisoner of war and
thrown into a cell without a bible, a church or the eucharist, mass or
confession............you can remain saved.

I've been under shellfire and heard the prayers of my fellow soldiers.
No one was trying to determine whether they were Catholic, Protestant,
Jew or Mormon...........and GOD DIDN"T CARE !!!!!

 

Singer --

The issue of what exactly comprises the Kingdom of God was the beginning of my eventual journey into the Catholic Faith and the Church which is headed by the Holy Father in Rome.

Perhaps if we look at this from a different perspective:

When God created Adam and Eve, He did not necessarily create them with the intention of the Fall. The Fall was a result of free will, and was anticipated by the all knowing One, but it was not a direct intention of God. Rather, the intention of God was to establish His kingdom on earth and to set a son (Adam - Luke 3: 38) and daughter (Eve) over that kingdom. Adam and Eve were created to rule over the Creation (Gen. 1: 26) and have dominion over every living thing. This would have included any children born to them, for they were to be the king and queen over Earth, ruling in the authority of God given to them as His children.

Now suppose that the Fall had never happened? What would the result be. It would be a family of billions of beings, all the children of Adam and Eve, our first parents and still king and queen over earth. It would be an "eklessia" (a gathering) of everyone ever having been born, under the rulership of a king and queen, for the governance of God is KINGDOM -- not, contrary to popular religious belief, a democracy.

But.....as we know, the Fall did happen and sin entered the world. The rulership of Adam and Eve was lost and they became subject to death.

Redemption is God's action in grace to REDEEM THAT WHICH HAS BEEN LOST and to set things in proper order again. Therefore, if the ultimate intention of God is a human family, living in peace on earth and ruled over by a king and queen on earth, then this is what Christ came to restore.

THAT, my friend, is the Church. This is what Carson was saying to you. It is the family of God, under headship in a familial structure. The Holy Father is the covenantal head over the Church on earth, and the Church is the Mother of us all. Ancient liturgical texts call the Church "the womb of Heaven", for in Her are we, as believers, brought to maturity and birthed into everlasting life.

If you come to understand the covenantal structure of God's dealings with mankind, you will see the necessity of the Church for salvation. One cannot be part of a family if one insists upon staying out of that family. God has used the language of family to describe membership in His Kingdom. He has referred to Himself as "Father". If He has done this, then based on the earthly typology which God established in Adam and Eve, to His Fatherhood, there must be a Mother.

As He restored Adam in Christ (1 Corin. 15:45), He must also restore Eve, which He has done in the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are the new Adam and Eve of the New Covenant, human beings who are over all of humanity. But being spiritual beings now, exalted to glory as all believers will be some day, there needs to be on earth a type of the real (which, according to Peter Kreeft, is what all the things on earth are -- types of the reality). Thus the Holy Father and the Church are the typology of the redeemed Adam and Eve who are in Heaven now ruling over all mankind.

Your refusal to even be in a structured environment smacks of rebellion. God establishes authorities, and if you read your Bible (which I believe you do) you should know that rebellion is considered to be as the sin of witchcraft. (Meaning gravely evil) God has restored Adam and Eve. He has placed the Church as the nurturing Mother and type of the New Eve here on earth. To refuse Her is to refuse the earthly authority which God has ordained us to be in subjection to.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

With all due respect, Ed, that sounds like intimidation of the highest order, and it is most unscriptual. Can you point out to me, in God's word, where he refuses salvation to those who don't join a church ?

I won't be around to read your answer right away. I'm taking advantage of the early season, and hitting the beach in Maine for a week.

And I am still in prayer for the family matters you described to me.

And I missed ya over the lenten season.

 

*sigh*

Brother Curtis --

You know, I am really quite fond of you, above all the other angry X Catholics on this board and elsewhere, but it sounds like once again you read my post, and rather than think about the concepts I posted regarding the familial nature of God and how His redemptive program restores that which was lost in Eden, you simply saw the idea that refusing to join the Church (not "a" church, "THE" Church) places one's soul in jeopardy and responded with what you said about "intimidation".

Sheeeeesh!!

Look, man, I have been recently diagnosed with Hepatitis C. My doctor told me point blank, "Drink alcohol and you will definately die early."

Is that intimidation or is that cold, hard FACTS?

If you walk off the roof of a 40 story building, unless you are Superman and can levitate, you are going to DIE!! Cold, hard facts.

In fact, the whole universe works on certain facts, truths, and principles that act in certain ways and have certain results if those principles are violated. Cold, hard facts.

Fact: God has described Himself as a Trinity in Scripture. The Trinity is the first family of love, the love between the Father and the Word producing or bringing forth the Spirit. All co - equal. All God.

Fact: Life -- the state of being alive -- for Adam and Eve was the state of being intimately UNITED to God in family. This familial relationship is called the covenantal relationship. It has specific principles and earmarks found throughout the Bible.

Fact: Death is the state of being outside UNION WITH God.

Fact: The Church is called "The Body of Christ," Who is God. Therefore, to be united to the Church is to be united to Christ God, which is to be united to and to have LIFE. To continue faithful in that relationship is life eternal.

I cannot change the facts and I am sorry if that looks like intimidation. The good news is that God is love and in His marvelous grace, He does everything He can (such as giving us the Church, the Sacraments, and the Bible) to guide us into a relationship with Him.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

PS It's nice to be back. Have a wonderful time in Maine. I bet it will be real nice. Do you fish, by any chance?

 

The issue of what exactly comprises the Kingdom of God was the beginning of my eventual journey into the Catholic Faith and the Church which is headed by the Holy Father in Rome.

We need to research the Kingdom of God further and reveal how the Kingdom of God is referred to in the bible.... not just according to the RCC theory.

For instance:

Luke 22:18
For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine,
until the kingdom of God shall come.

Jesus was not referring to the Catholic Church here;
A commentary suggests:

Jesus has not yet celebrated a Passover in heaven; He is waiting
for all His people to be gathered to Him, then there will be a great
supper - the marriage supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) - this is
the fulfillment in the kingdom of God Jesus is longing for .

That is a future event yet to happen...when believers will be joined as the
Bride of Christ. If the Catholic Church is the bride, the body of Christ
and the present kingdom, then there would be no sense in praying:

Matthew 6:10
" Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven."


Let's not assume that Protestants are unwittingly praying for the advancement
of the Catholic Church with that prayer.

Therefore, if the ultimate intention of God is a human family, living in peace on earth and ruled over by a king and queen on earth, then this is what Christ came to restore.

No, Christ didn't come to restore anything...He came to save that which was lost.
And by that he didn't mean to save the Catholic Church out of oblivion.

The Holy Father is the covenantal head over the Church on earth, and the Church is the Mother of us all.

I'm told the pope confesses his sins to another priest on a weekly manner.
That is not my idea of a Holy Father.....and I don't need a spiritual mother.
Jesus said.."No man shall come unto the Father but by ME"


Your refusal to even be in a structured environment smacks of rebellion. God establishes authorities, and if you read your Bible (which I believe you do) you should know that rebellion is considered to be as the sin of witchcraft. (Meaning gravely evil)

I was reminded of that same thing in my childhood, but the emphasis was on the 2x2Way. I learned to reject those claims and it has stuck.

God has restored Adam and Eve. He has placed the Church as the nurturing Mother and type of the New Eve here on earth. To refuse Her is to refuse the earthly authority which God has ordained us to be in subjection to.

God's new covenant was not to restore Adam and Eve...what would that gain..? He'd already sent a savior to be our intermediary. The sacrifice that Jesus made is one that will wash away all sin and rejection if we will only believe. I could not hope to add upon that truth.
You quote what has been taught to you from the straits of Catholicism....not the bible.

Salvation is offered to individual souls.....not to groups organized under a presumed name.

 

Ok...one more time...we all interpret the teachings; whether they be the bible, the church or the pope's infallible decrees.

In all honesty, I cannot understand how you cannot see this obvious truth.

Let me give yet another example of this (this time less abstract):

2+2=4. I know this because my elementary school teacher told me this.

1+1=2. I know this because my elementary school teacher told me this.

Now, 1+1+1+1=4. I know this because I interpreted (ie, used common sense in this case or applied rules that I have discerned through previous teachings) this, I was not taught this.

So, we have three mathematical thruths, 1+1=2, 2+2=4 and 1+1+1+1=4, but only two of which I was actually taught explicitly.

Would you say that it is illogical for me to base my conlcusion of 1+1+1+1=4 on my interpretation of the two previous teachings? No, of course not.

What we have is a need for discernement.

God gave us the faculty for discernment for just these reasons. Please, please think this through before you post a reply.

Basically, your entire above "conclusion" is nothing more than a way for you to try and justify the catholic teaching authority. Now, with it being easily shown that your conclusion is nothing more than several illogical statements strung together to form an invalid conclusion it is also shown that the fundamental, supposed exhaustive teaching authority of the catholic church is a myth.

Now, it is plainfully (and by now, painfully) obvious that all christians need to interpret the teachings of whatever authority is "charged" over them. I am not sure what your hangup with this is, but I don't really want to have to explain this again....


In Christ,
jason

 

That is fine, and I may be able to accomodate you. Though, if you continue to spout falsities, I will have to continue to correct.

That is fine, but you fail to see the ramifications of your statement. No humanly authority had the power or resources to expand upon every truth needed for every age. No matter the timeframe, believers will need to interpret based upon custom circumstances.

On the contrary, in this thread and others I have proven through examples and logical conclusions how this works. Please reread all the threads. If you wish to continue this in private, you can email me. I doubt you will, but I am open to the opportunity.

Have you even read the posts? At all?

Come on, at least give it a shot.

BTW. You realize that your admission that individual Christians interpret the teaching authority shows you do agree that individual interpretation is needed....so what is the problem?

In Christ,
jason

 

Hey, if you want to continue to use invalid logic, I will continue to correct you. Especially when you use those illogical conclusions to espouse a position contrary valid logical conclusions. Truth cannot contradict (something to think about).

But you know, I can make a special case and let you go about your merry way and stop correcting you (hey, if I stop doing that, imagine all the free time I would have!).

Ah! You see, you just stumbled upon the true differences between us. The issue of authority. Interpretation is an issue you cannot argue against, and you stopped doing so.

Authority, however, is another issue....

For another time
In Christ,
jason