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Featured The common ground is not.

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 37818, May 1, 2021.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There are different editions* of the word of God in our English translations.
    The good thing most of the translations translation have some fair agreement.
    The bad thing is where they disagree! The common ground is not.

    *That is in addition to textual variants in the texts used to be translated into English.

    I have some references which are a big deal to me.
    Two of which are:
    John 1:18.
    John 13:2.
    Of course there are more. [Mostly in the New Testament. Not just the KJV - NKJV, MLV and a few others.]

    John 1:18, God or Son. [Genesis 12:7 etc.]
    John 13:2, During or being ended. [Luke 22:20-21, Judas eats the remembrance.]
     
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  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, John 1:18 seems to have provided no common ground of understanding.

    Here are the four variants: (Translating monogenes as unique One)

    1. ho monogenês (the unique One)

    2. ho monogenês huios (the unique Son)

    3. monogenês theos (unique God)

    4. ho monogenês theos (the unique God)

    Because "unique Son" is commonly found elsewhere, and unique God is found nowhere else, some (Dr. Wallace) argue the text was corrupted early by copists to the more common rendering.

    The argument from Greek grammar (substansive + substansive) for the addition of "Himself God" is way above my pay grade. (See NET or CSB)

    A simple word meaning for word meaning substitution translation gives us:

    No one has ever seen God. The unique God, within the bosom of the Father, that One revealed Him.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It is one issue. the reading "The unique God" leaves you with two Gods. And throws away eternal Sonship. That the unique God became the Son in the incarnation John 1:14, Luke 1:35. And makes 99% of the manuscripts of the Gospel of John have the false reading.
     
  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Common ground disappeared beginning in 1881.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No the fact is God the Son was a uniquely divine incarnation. So God in three persons does not equate to three Gods.
    Nothing in unique God challenges God the Son's eternal Sonship.
    John 1:14 does not say Jesus became God's Son.
    Luke 1:35 does not say Jesus became God's Son. Only that the child will be called the Son of God because He is uniquely divine.

    No one has ever seen God. The unique God, within the bosom of the Father, that One revealed Him.
     
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  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I'm not seeing the problem...
    or perhaps it's because I don't recognize anything Greek outside the TR, so I limit my textual sources to it.

    To me, "μονογενής", transliterated into English as, "monogenēs" means:

    "mono" = "only" or "one",
    "genes" ( present day Greek renders it as "genos" ) = generated, offspring.

    gene | Origin and meaning of gene by Online Etymology Dictionary
    G3439 - monogenēs - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
    G3439 μονογενής - Strong's Greek Lexicon
    Strong's Greek: 3439. μονογενής (monogenés) -- only begotten
    Interlinear Bible: John 1:18 - Textus Receptus Bibles

    Therefore, "one-and-only" Son, or "only-begotten" Son.
    Some would say "unique", but to me that is taking liberties with the text and translating it using a synonym in the English,
    and not using the most accurate meaning of the word.
    I sympathize with you, and I have many.
    In fact, the entire Bible is a big deal to me.
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A notion of a unique God at the side of God the Father makes two Gods. [You are not acknowledging this to be true]. One is the invisible God and the other the visible God and who is invisible too. Where in John 1:1-18 is the visible God called the Son? Only by interpertation of John 1:14 with Luke 1:35.
    Without John 1:18 calling Him the Son what Biblical proof that the Word was the Son prior to His incarnation? That cannot be interperted as just prophesy of His incarnation.
    It says He changed to become flesh.
    Where is the Word referred to having been God's Son prior to His incarnation?

    That reading is either wrong or the 99% of the Gospel of John manuscripts are wrong having "Son." In which then all the appearances of the LORD God would then be the Son as the LORD God, or otherwise only the unique God prior to His incarnation was the visible God on behalf of the invisible God.
     
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  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Please do not make the unique persons of God into multiple Gods. That view is absurd, and denies the trinity.
    2) I provided an accurate translation of John 1:18. It does not use the word "Son."
    3) I have provided the texts that refer to God the Son before His incarnation multiple times. Please stop pretending your questions have not been answered again and again.
    4) The translation provided for John 1:18 does not suggest the Second Person of Trinity was not called the Son prior to the incarnation. Such a claim is bogus nonsense.
    5) I think this thread is not about proper translation of John 1:18, but rather your hobby horse denying the eternal sonship of the Second Person of the Trinity.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    We on this point do not agree which is actually God's word in John 1:18. The 99.6% of the Gospel of John manuscripts which read "Son" or the very small number [0.04%] of old manuscripts of John you believe correctly reads "God."
     
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  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Fine, I find the arguments for unique God persuading.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You have presented the known variants for John 1:18.

    The 100% reading: "No one has ever seen God. The Unique, within the bosom of the Father, that One revealed Him."

    John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the Unique from the Father, full of grace and truth."

     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Your false accusation.
    Without what I understand to be the original reading of "Son" in John 1:18, there is no explicit teaching in the written word of God for the Word being the Son prior to His incarnation. It becomes a subjective interpertation.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Actually once Eramus made his Greek Text!
     
  14. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    You got that right. The Roman Catholic Latin Vulgatist (pre-King James Version Onlyist) could not stand the Bible from the Original Greek taking the place of the secondary Latin, just like KJVOnlyist today.
     
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  15. obadiahrobinson

    obadiahrobinson New Member

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    ONLY-BEGOTTEN
    μονογενής
    monogenís


    The Greek word mo·no·ge·nesʹ is defined by lexicographers as “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents.

    The Scriptures speak of “the only-begotten son” of a widow who lived in the city of Nain, of Jairus’ “only-begotten daughter,” and of a man’s “only-begotten” son whom Jesus cured of a demon. (Lu 7:11, 12; 8:41, 42; 9:38) The Greek Septuagint uses mo·no·ge·nesʹ when speaking of Jephthah’s daughter, concerning whom it is written: “Now she was absolutely the only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter.”—Jg 11:34.

    The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9) This is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus. As the Loʹgos, or Word, “this one was in the beginning with God,” even “before the world was.” (Joh 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24) At that time , he is described as the “only-begotten Son” whom his Father sent “into the world.”—1Jo 4:9.

    Paul referred to Isaac as Abraham’s “only-begotten son” (Heb 11:17), even though Abraham also fathered Ishmael by Hagar as well as several sons by Keturah. (Ge 16:15; 25:1, 2; 1Ch 1:28, 32) God’s covenant, however, was established only through Isaac, Abraham’s only son by God’s promise, as well as the only son of Sarah. (Ge 17:16-19) Furthermore, at the time Abraham offered up Isaac, he was the only son in his father’s household. No sons had yet been born to Keturah, and Ishmael had been gone for some 20 years—no doubt was married and head of his own household.—Ge 22:2.

    So from several viewpoints in regard to the promise and the covenant, the things about which Paul was writing to the Hebrews, Isaac was Abraham’s only-begotten son. Hence, Paul parallels “the promises” and the “only-begotten son” with “‘your seed’ . . . through Isaac.” (Heb 11:17, 18) Whether Josephus had a similar viewpoint or not, he too spoke of Isaac as Abraham’s “only son.”—Jewish Antiquities, I, 222 (xiii, 1).
     
  16. obadiahrobinson

    obadiahrobinson New Member

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    in Greek that would be Κανείς δεν έχει δει ποτέ τον Θεό. Ο Μοναδικός, μέσα στους κόλπους του Πατέρα, που Τον αποκάλυψε».
     
  17. obadiahrobinson

    obadiahrobinson New Member

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    in greek that would be Κανείς δεν έχει δει ποτέ τον Θεό. Ο μοναδικός Θεός, μέσα στους κόλπους του Πατέρα, που Τον αποκάλυψε
     
  18. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    Why would John choose this reading here and nowhere else? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Does not sound like something John would say at all.
     
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  19. obadiahrobinson

    obadiahrobinson New Member

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    he should learn greek
     
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  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    All mss of John have the following less unique undocument scribal errors. The 100%.

    θεον ουδεις εωρακε πωποτε μονογενης ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο
     
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