1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Copyrights issue....

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by robycop3, Jan 2, 2007.

Top Posters
Page 1 of 5
  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Another of KJVOism's arguments is that the KJV is not copyrighted while virtually every MV is. In my quest to debunk KJVOism, I'm not really required to provide any evidence, as the burden of proof lies with those who are trying to establish the veracity of KJVO. However, we shall continue to debunk KJVO point-by-point in order to warn the new Christian not to fall for it. Now comes the time to debunk their copyright argument.

    I don't see this idea advocated by anyone before Ruckman, in his 1964 book, Bible Babel.(Pgs 15-16-17-19) If you have that book, please note how wishy-washy Ruckman is on the subject!

    The KJVO says the KJV is not copyrighted. Wrong! We shall now prove it IS indeed copyrighted!

    In England, the principle of copyrighting was established firmly under Queen Mary 1 by 1555. Every book printed/published in England had to be reviewed by the Crown & approved for release to the public. However, once approved, the publisher had exclusive rights to print & publish that work.

    The earlier English Bibles & the first edition of the Textus Receptus were all copyrighted.

    Mary was seeking to ban the printing of English-language Bibles in her realm. However, after her death, QE 1 allowed English Bibles to be printed/sold again.

    When the AV 1611 was completed, KJ gave the copyright to his royal printer, Sir Robert Barker. Thus, on the title page of the AV itself, and on the title page of its NT, we see the Latin words 'cum privilegio' are found.(For those who have Hendrickson repros, the words are very hard to see on the title page of the whole Bible, but are very easy to see on the bottom center of the NT's title page.)

    His father, Christopher Barker, had been granted a copyright from QE1 to print English Bibles & almost all other religious books. In 1599 she had given Robert Barker the title "Queen's Printer For Life" after his father died that year.

    It must be noted that during this time the work of the printers was still inspected by agents of the Crown, and Robt. Barker was once fined 300 pounds for his printer's goof that resulted in the "sinner's Bible" which read "Thou shalt commit adultery".

    The Barker family held the copyright for the KJV until 1709. But that copyright did NOT expire with the end of the Barkers' holding it. It passed into the hands of other royal printers, & into the hands of both Oxford and Cambridge Universities.

    Today, there are four copyright holders for the KJV in England...the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, William Collins Sons & Co., Ltd, and Eyre & Spottiswoode. If you have an Oxford and/or Cambridge KJV edition, please look under the coat-of-arms for each university on the title page, & you'll see cum privilegio. Any KJVO doubting this, please feel free to verify the fact of those copyrights through the British Embassy.

    The firm of Eyre & Spottiswoode has been one of the royal printers ever since the early 1700s. The Collins Co. is now HarperCollins & is owned by Rupert Murdoch.

    The AV/KJV originated in England. Every American edition is a copy-cat. Personally, I like the idea of a copyrighted KJV or any other version, as it's an assurance that I have a genuine article and not a wildcat edition that may have been altered.

    Yes, the KJV is still under copyright in the land of its origin, and I'm glad it is!

    YOUR thoughts?
     
    #1 robycop3, Jan 2, 2007
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    80
    All I know is that my Oxford edition KJV , wide margin has a clear copyright in it
     
    #2 NaasPreacher (C4K), Jan 2, 2007
  3. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    My thoughts...

    When I desire to quote from the Holy Bible I do not have to ask men for permission and it fits the argument that the Word of God is not bound. When I desire to quote from copyrighted Bibles I have to ask men for permission and suggests that the word of God can be bound by men. A copyright places ownership of works upon the hands of men and a copyright says that these are the works of men and if anyone uses them contrary to ways they dictate then men will sue you. The background information you provided is interesting but it does not change how this practically applies to our lives.

    From Biblegateway we know that the King James Bible is in the public domain.

    Publishers:
    King James = Public Domain​

    The other works are not...

    NKJV = Thomas Nelson
    NIV = International Bible Society
    NASB = The Lockman Foundation
    Amplified Bible = The Lockman Foundation
    English Standard Version = Crossway Bibles
    The Message = Eugene Peterson​

    Copyright info taken from Biblegateway again...

    King James = No Copyright Information Available​

    NIV = "The NIV text may be quoted in any form (written, visual, electronic or audio), up to and inclusive of five hundred (500) verses without express written permission of the publisher, providing the verses do not amount to a complete book of the Bible nor do the verses quoted account for twenty-five percent (25%) or more of the total text of the work in which they are quoted." ​

    If I was to quote all 25 verses of Jude from the Authorized Version I could freely do so and would need no man's permission.

    However, if I desired to quote all 25 verses of Jude from the NIV I would be required to get the permission of men to quote what is alleged to be the word of God and I would need to add the following annotation:

    "Scripture taken from the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society. Used by permission of Zondervan. All rights reserved.
    The "NIV" and "New International Version" trademarks are registered in the United States Patent and Trademark Office by International Bible Society. Use of either trademark requires the permission of International Bible Society."​

    This copyright issue is yet one more way in which the KJV is unique to all of the others and is one more reason to choose the narrow old paths, rather then contemporary copyrighted works of men.

    "Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound." - 2 Timothy 2:9​
     
    #3 Rufus_1611, Jan 2, 2007
  4. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you believe that this copyright pertains to the scripture contained within that book?
     
    #4 Rufus_1611, Jan 2, 2007
  5. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, Rufus:

    I plainly showed in the OP that the KJV IS copyrighted, and if you don't believe it is, just contact the British Embassy. And Roger just stated his Oxford KJV edition has a copyright. So does mine. So does the AV 1611.

    And copyright has no effect on the use or validity of the text. In every English-using country, Bibles come under the principle of FAIR USE, which means one may use a copyrighted Bible in its intended manner, which may involve copying whole chapters for teaching/preaching purposes. thus, if you were teaching the whole book of jude in a Sunday School class, you may freely copy it to make handouts for your students. What you may NOT do is copy it to sell for profit, or copy enough of any given version which would exceed fair use by ordinary standards.

    The "copyright police" ordinarily don't check the reproduction of a book, especially a Bible version, unless it becomes obvious someone's selling repros for profit or distributing it enough to curtail sales of the genuine work.

    However, the KJV IS copyrighted, ensuring me that when I buy a copy bearing the copyright indicator, I'm getting a GENUINE copy.
     
    #5 robycop3, Jan 2, 2007
  6. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,024
    Likes Received:
    0
    ...or burn it! Ruckman's books are good only for kindling.
     
    #6 Keith M, Jan 2, 2007
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    No it doesn't. A copyright of a version of Scripture protects the work from changes and from you taking credit for the translation. The KJV is under a similar copyright.

    That's not true. The ASV is not under copyright, as many other older translations are not. The copyright in America expires after 75 years I believe. I can't remember exactly the stipulations now.

    But you should be more careful not to mislead people concerning this issue. It comes very close to dishonesty. The word of God deserves better than that.

    Yes, what's unique is that it is copyrighted in America.

    The copyright argument is as silly as most of the others. The question we should be asking is not "Is this copyrighted" but rather "Is this a faithful translation."

    It's too bad we mess up the questions too often.
     
    #7 Pastor Larry, Jan 2, 2007
  8. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have sent an enquiry to the British Embassy and will let you know what they say.

    Yes he did. So does my Thomas Nelson KJV Study Bible. It says things like "Concordance Copyright" and "the following articles are copyrighted" and "The study helps are Copyrighted" and "Maps are reprinted with permission" etc. There is nothing about the scripture being copyrighted and if Roger is suggesting that he has a KJV Bible where the publisher of that Bible is contending copyright over scripture, then we can likely proceed with a criminal complaint against that publisher.

    If an author decides to write material for resale and include scriptural quotations from the NIV, NKJV etc. then the author will have to obtain permission and annotate in a way that I described. If someone decided to copy the entire contents of the Hendrickson 1611 (save for their proprietary pages and logos) for resale they can do it and Hendrickson can do nothing about it.

    The frequency of prosecution is relevant to the validity of the law?

    Do you deny that the KJV is public domain?

    The following is from Crosswalk. Note all the men they went to in order to obtain permission to use those Bibles.

    Our Special Thanks to:
    Zondervan and International Bible Society for permission to use the NIV, TNIV and the NIrV;
    The American Bible Society for permission to use the Good News Translation of the Bible;
    Baker Publishing Group for permission to use the Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology;
    Broadman & Holman Publishers for permission to use the Holman Christian Standard Bible;
    Deuel Enterprises, Inc. for permission to use the Third Millennium Bible;
    God's Word to the Nations for permission to use the GOD'S WORD translation of the Bible;
    Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc. for permission to use the Complete Jewish Bible;
    The Lockman Foundation for permission to use the New American Standard Bible;
    The National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA for permission to use the New Revised Standard Version;
    Thomas Nelson Publishers for permission to use the New King James Version of the Bible;
    Tyndale House Publishers for permission to use the New Living Translation of the Bible;
    Logos Bible Study Software for permission to use 10,000 Sermon Illustrations. ​


    Where is the thank you for the use of the King James Version? If they had included one, it would have read something like:
    "Special thanks to God for permission to use the Authorized Version in the English language of His Word."​
     
    #8 Rufus_1611, Jan 2, 2007
  9. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,219
    Likes Received:
    406
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are many other English translations that no longer have a copyright, including the ones before the KJV, translations in the 1800's, the 1901 ASV, and the 1912 Improved Edition published by the American Baptist Publication Society. Furthermore, the present-day English translation called the World English Bible is in the public domain and has no copyright. Therefore, it is clearly a falsehood to claim that the KJV is the only translation that presently does not have a copyright.

    While the KJV is in the public domain in the United States, the KJV is still protected by copyright in Great Britain.
     
    #9 Logos1560, Jan 2, 2007
  10. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did not include the ASV in the list of "Other Works". Your suggestion that I did, is either more selective reading or very close to dishonesty.

    Where should I go to determine which questions should be asked and which are the silly ones. I want to ask, "When I pick up this Bible do I have the Word of God in my hands?" Should I seek you out to determine if it is a silly or proper question?
     
    #10 Rufus_1611, Jan 2, 2007
  11. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    For the record the ASV and the WEB (which is based off of the ASV) are public domain.
     
    #11 Rufus_1611, Jan 2, 2007
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rufus_1611: //The following is from Crosswalk. Note all the men they went to in order to obtain permission to use those Bibles. ... //

    We are discussing how to tell from whom the KJV copyright
    was stolen by Crosswalk at this topic:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=36217

    American Patriots should know that the War of 1776 against England
    was started, among other things, by the Tax Policy of England
    which included a 1 £ (pound of sterling silver, equavalent to about
    $1,100 today) tax on the King James Bible which went direct to
    the King (not to the country of England). Want to talk about
    COPYRIGHT? The USofA is BUILT on NOT honoring Royal Copyrights,
    that is why there is 'no copyright' on the KJVs in the USofA
    today - we are still flaunting the English Crown.

    (BTW, the pirates who started the USofA used to put
    AUTHORIZED VERSION on their illegal copies of the
    KJVs and changed the spelling willy nilly.)
     
    #12 Ed Edwards, Jan 2, 2007
  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, that same Scripture is found within many other versions.
     
    #13 robycop3, Jan 2, 2007
  14. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    When you use the word "same" I presume you are using definition #2 of the below?

    SAME, a. [L. simul, together. Gr. Shall we suppose then that s has passed into an aspirate in this word, as in salt, Gr. or has the Greek word lost s? The word same may be the L. idem or dem, dialectically varied. The primary sense is to set, to place, to put together.]


    1. Identical; not different or other.

    Thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
    Ps. 102.


    The Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. 1Cor. 11.

    2. Of the identical kind or species, though not the specific thing. We say, the horse of one country is the same animal as the horse of another country. The same plants and fruits are produced in the same latitudes. We see in men in all countries, the same passions and the same vices.

    Th' etherial vigor is in all the same.

    3. That was mentioned before.

    Do but think how well the same he spends, who spends his blood his country to relieve.

    4. Equal; exactly similar. One ship will not run the same distance as another in the same time, and with the same wind. Two balls of the same size have not always the same weight. Two instruments will not always make the same sound. (Webster's 1828)​
     
    #14 Rufus_1611, Jan 2, 2007
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Rufus_1611:I have sent an enquiry to the British Embassy and will let you know what they say.

    GOOD!!! Unlike many a KJVO, you're actually checking something out! Please DO let us know!

    Yes he did. So does my Thomas Nelson KJV Study Bible. It says things like "Concordance Copyright" and "the following articles are copyrighted" and "The study helps are Copyrighted" and "Maps are reprinted with permission" etc. There is nothing about the scripture being copyrighted and if Roger is suggesting that he has a KJV Bible where the publisher of that Bible is contending copyright over scripture, then we can likely proceed with a criminal complaint against that publisher.

    I hoped ya asked the British Embassy for copies of those copyrights.

    If an author decides to write material for resale and include scriptural quotations from the NIV, NKJV etc. then the author will have to obtain permission and annotate in a way that I described. If someone decided to copy the entire contents of the Hendrickson 1611 (save for their proprietary pages and logos) for resale they can do it and Hendrickson can do nothing about it.

    Try it in the UK.

    The frequency of prosecution is relevant to the validity of the law?

    How often do cops enforce jaywalking, which is illegal in almost every American municipality? No police entity has the $$ nor the manpower to enforce everything on the books. While I was a cop, we did NOT run DNA tests on every cigaret butt on the sidewalk seeking to bust the litterbugs who threw 'em there. The litter laws are valid as the copyright laws, and no one, including the publishers, try to go after every suspected copyright violator unless it's an open-and-shut of violating a copyright for profit. And please remember that your example below is FOR PROFIT of the re-seller.

    Do you deny that the KJV is public domain?

    It's public domain in the USA but not in the UK. And there are several other versions in the USA which are public domain.

    And I believe you can use or reproduce parts of any Bible version in America for its intended purposes w/o fear of copyright violation.

    The following is from Crosswalk. Note all the men they went to in order to obtain permission to use those Bibles.

    Our Special Thanks to:
    Zondervan and International Bible Society for permission to use the NIV, TNIV and the NIrV;
    The American Bible Society for permission to use the Good News Translation of the Bible;
    Baker Publishing Group for permission to use the Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology;
    Broadman & Holman Publishers for permission to use the Holman Christian Standard Bible;
    Deuel Enterprises, Inc. for permission to use the Third Millennium Bible;
    God's Word to the Nations for permission to use the GOD'S WORD translation of the Bible;
    Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc. for permission to use the Complete Jewish Bible;
    The Lockman Foundation for permission to use the New American Standard Bible;
    The National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA for permission to use the New Revised Standard Version;
    Thomas Nelson Publishers for permission to use the New King James Version of the Bible;
    Tyndale House Publishers for permission to use the New Living Translation of the Bible;
    Logos Bible Study Software for permission to use 10,000 Sermon Illustrations. ​
    Where is the thank you for the use of the King James Version? If they had included one, it would have read something like:
    "Special thanks to God for permission to use the Authorized Version in the English language of His Word."​
    [/quote]

    If this publication were to be sold in the UK, it WOULD hafta have permission from the copyright holders to reproduce it.

    If those versions were reproduced in part for the purpose of preaching/teaching within a church, for witnessing to the lost, for use in a free handout tract, etc. no permission would hafta be obtained.

    Besides that, you *KNOW* a copy containing a copyright is GENUINE.
     
    #15 robycop3, Jan 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2007
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Same in meaning and validity.
     
    #16 robycop3, Jan 2, 2007
  17. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,024
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rufus, when you pick up any legitimate English Bible version you can rest assured you have God's word in your hands.
     
    #17 Keith M, Jan 2, 2007
  18. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very well. It is my view that the TR line of Bibles, with the KJV being the masterpiece of that line, are legitimate and the Alexandrian line are illegitimate.
     
    #18 Rufus_1611, Jan 2, 2007
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Read what you said. You said, From Biblegateway we know that the King James Bible is in the public domain....The other works are not... Now, is your contention that the ASV is the KJV (please get it right) or that is not a work? You can't have it both ways. Your statement is that hte KJV is copyrighted and the other works are not. It seems clear that the ASV is one of the other works.

    The Bible Gateway site that you cite clearly refutes you: http://www.biblegateway.com/version.../index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=8&lang=2



    You could seek me out, or you could to someone else who knows what they are talking about. Studying is always a good option. In any of these cases, you will find the truth that the Word of God is every faithful translation, not the KJV only. And your life will be revolutionized. I have yet to find anyone who switched to a modern version who was not revolutionized by it. It takes some time to get used to, but wow ... simply amazing.
     
    #19 Pastor Larry, Jan 2, 2007
  20. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Methamphetamines will revolutionize your life too. Make the switch today!
     
    #20 James_Newman, Jan 2, 2007
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 5
Loading...