The coupe de grace of deniers of original sin

correct me if I'm wrong, but you were referencing infants in your op, no? Never heard an infant say no.
the burden of proof is on you to show you can know an infants heart, desires and motive while discerning each cry. Some spiritual gift that must be!

strike 3...wrong on all counts!

thats wonderful!

besides being off in your prophecy skills (good thing you don't live during OT times), like I said earlier you were discussing infants. I didnt even address school age children. If you would like me to I will.

 

Debates and discussions are 2 ways, btw. You never answered any of my questions. If you wish to have serious discussion per your op (which was pertaining to infants, just went back and looked) then do just that without the cute little quips.

 

when we study the following passage about regeneration we can know that a person comes out of the womb spiritually alive so he is not separated from God:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit. That happens at conception.

 

HP: They no more have a clear understanding of the intrinsic nature of moral commands than an animal does. They are operating from instinct and two basic motivations at that young age, rewards and punishments. Until one reaches an age where they understand the intrinsic value of a command 'apart from rewards or punishments,' they are not moral agents.

Why do you believe that men, even those with no understanding of Scripture, intuitively know it is wrong to punish a child for say, murder, if it is done at such a young age? If anything we would place such a one in protective custody at a young age to protect themselves from themselves and to keep others safe. Why do you suppose we would not even consider executing a child for what might appear to be a violent crime?

The only thing you have proven so far, if anything, is that physically depraved sensibilities in children are a formidable influence to selfishness, etc.

You need to come to grips with the fact that being born is not sin. You need to distinguish between influences to sin and sin itself. You need to understand that the sensibilities and the will are not one in the same. By the way, when are you going to address the progression of sin mentioned in James? That might be an excellent start towards wisdom in this discussion.


More often than not, it is poor parental training in small children if a parent finds such behavior as you are saying all children exhibit. I can tell you one thing, having raised several children well past the age of whatever, all children do NOT exhibit the behavior you speak of. Good training by parents coupled with prayer goes a long way to avert such responses in children.

In conclusion: All men are born with depraved sensibilities as a direct cause of the fall. Those are indeed strong proclivities to sin but are not sin in and of themselves just as temptation to sin, or an influence to sin is not sin in and of itself. Sin simply does not occur until the age of accountability as explained above. To attribute sin to infants and small children as you clearly have done on a regular basis, is beyond any semblance of reason.

 

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Jesus told three stories in Luke 15 describing lost sinners who repent. The first he compares to a shepherd who had 100 sheep but lost one. He searched and recovered it, but originally this sheep was in the flock, not lost. He then describes a woman with 10 coins who loses one. She searches and recovers it, but originally it was in her possession and not lost.

Then he describes a young man who leaves home and is lost in sin, he joins himself to a citizen of a far country (Satan). He repents and comes home asking for forgiveness. When he does, his father says he is ALIVE AGAIN. This is repeated in vs. 32.

Jesus knows correct doctrine, how can someone be ALIVE AGAIN if thy are born dead in sin?

Original sin is false doctrine introduced by Augustine.

 

HP: Sorry, I am a parent. I cannot follow you in the least. Oh well, you must have writing "every parent" in some form of common parlance. :laugh:

 

So you're children were perfect? Never had a temper tantrum? I guess I must have gotten the only rebellious child. Mine came out screaming "no"! :laugh:

 

Sorry to hear that Amy. :tear: All of ours were perfect.:laugh:

Seriously, the point is not whether or not children are easily led by depraved sensibilities, the question is about are those actions in infants and small children in reality sin? If they are born in sin, we may pity them, but to blame them, and especially eternally so, would be completely unjust.

We do not even 'blame' them in reality as small children, for they have absolutely little to no understanding of their actions other than via praise or blame. What we do for blame at a young age is not as if though they have committed a moral trespass, but rather blame is centered on teaching them proper, kind and safe behavior.
Certainly I have some children that required more training than others, but I can honestly say they have been a joy to raise. I thank God for them. I ask God to help make up for my mistakes, for certainly I made some.

Sinners from birth? No way. Were they born as all men, with depravity sensibilities as a direct consequence of the fall? Absolutely.

 

You have a problem in that you ignore Scripture.
"We are by nature children of wrath."
What nature? The only nature that makes us children of wrath is our sinful nature that we are born with. If we were not born with a sinful nature we would not be children of wrath would we?
You need to address Eph.2:2,3.

The fact that a person needs to be born again and the teaching that he must be born into God's family, become a child of God, infers that he was never a child of God to begin with. If he was not a child of God, it means he was a child of Satan, as Eph.2:2,3 teaches. He needs to be born into God's family. He was born with a sin nature, born into the wrong family. He needs to be born again; born into the right family, the family of God.

 

Nice philosophy; very humanistic; but notice that there is not an ounce of Scripture to back it up.

 

What an amazing arguement! At some point in time, between birth and whenever, that child will commit sin. Period. That child will need to be born again. Some of these statement sound very huministic, and or human pyschology, no scripture.

 

I'm not sure what the real problem is here in the discussion but I also know that by one man sin entered the world and plunged the whole world into sin. But also by one man the curse was lifted from the whole world in such a way that sinners could be forgiven of their sins if only they receive the knowledge of the truth that is given at some point to all men born into the world (John 1:9). If death came upon all men to condemnation, the free gift also came upon all men unto justification, but that free gift must be accepted from God on His specific terms if it is to be effective (Romans 5:18). Otherwise there is no forgiveness for sin for those who reject the truth after the light is given them from God when they are spoken to by the Holy Spirit who is drawing them to Christ (John 12:32; John 3:19).

 

I second this! And give it two of these-----------> :thumbs::thumbs:



and for good measure------> :thumbsup:

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: