The Dead In Christ Shall Rise First – 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Excuse me!
Who is the one who is unwilling to hear?

And who is the "we" that I seem to be addressing Dan. Is there more than one Dan? What is the group that you belong to?

 

One might quote that paragon of theological wisdom of the 1950s, Arthur Herbert Fonzarelli, better known simply as Fonzie,

"A-a-a-a-a-a-a!" :thumbs::thumbs:

I'll just say, "Ahhh!"

Ed

 

Sounds like he thinks he's one of the trinity.

This was his response to your question about who "we" is.

I smell a rat.

 

Dan, would you be so kind as to answer DHK's question, "who is we" in your own words?

 

Does it matter who is at the front of the line? Didn't Jesus criticize his people for wanting first place?

 

"The first shall be last and the last shall be first."

What do you think?

"And I say unto you that the least among you shall be the greatest."

 

Dan, I cannot take what you say seriously because you are basing it on a very strange experience and because of what you say here about the "spirits of the holy angels and saints" flowing into you. It also sounds like you equate them with the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is God, the 3rd Person of the Trinity. Also, "spirits of angels" doesn't make sense because angels are spirits, and angels or the spirits of saints cannot pass through your body. I'm afraid this is actually an evil experience and will not take you toward the truth of God's word. I say this out of concern.

 

Hold onto your hats, people, but I'm siding with Pastor Larry and DHK on this one! I smell not just a rat but a troll....

 

We did. It's worth nothing. It is contrary to the revealed word of God and is therefore false teaching to be turned from with haste and repentance.

 

No, they are not. The Holy Ghost is God, the 3rd Person of the Trinity. We are adopted through faith but we are not the Holy Ghost.

 

The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First - I Thessalonians 4:

This passage makes my heart jump with joy as I know it probably does many others, my parents just passed away in the past two years, each a year apart, they were both saved. I know if I am alive when He calls us home, they will be caught up in the air, then I will be changed from this corruptible body and take on an uncorruptible one, meeting my loved ones in the air on our way up to see Him. I believe that we will see our loved dead ones in Christ even before we see Him, isn't that just like Him? To always give us happiness?
YSIC
Joyce

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
I would not, brethren, haue you ignorant concerning them which are a sleepe, that ye sorow not euen as other which haue no hope. 14 For if we beleeue that Iesus is dead, and is risen, euen so them which sleepe in Iesus, will God bring with him.
15 For this say we vnto you by the worde of the Lord, that we which liue, and are remayning in the comming of the Lord, shall not preuent them which sleepe.
16 For the Lord himselfe shall descende from heauen with a shoute, and with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then shall we which liue and remaine, be caught vp with them also in the clouds, to meete the Lord in the ayre: and so shall we euer be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort your selues one another with these wordes.

The subject of the paragraph is 'them which sleep in Jesus' (v13)
this is contrasted with those that 'live and remain' (V17).

Using the common meaning of the words and the way they are used the subject is about the physically dead who are saved.

I can't see how we can use v.18 as a comfort those who have physically lost their saved family and friend - I can't see it if it is talking about the spiritually 'dead'. The passage is talking about the physically dead.

Here is my writing on understanding both Thessalonians:
-----------------------

The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
to the end."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words[/u.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

I've underlined a command to comfort each
other with these things. I personally don't see how
we can comfort each other with 'Jesus is going to
come get us at the end of the Tribulation period'.
So I use 'Jesus is going to come get us at the end of
the age which is before the Tribulation Period starts.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

I underlined "our gathering together to Him,
we ask you" in verse 1 and
the falling away comes first.
The second is the only mention of the first
in the rest of the chapter.

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
Antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invasion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Millinnial Kingdom period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

-------------------------------
This understanding of the Bible just doesn't NOT work if

 

The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First

Hey guys, I know I'm the new one on the block here; but, that scripture Matthew
14:13 where it talks about "enduring to the end" that is not something those who are living in the dispensation of Grace need to concern themselves over in the first place, that belongs in the Tribulation period. When the church is raptured that ends the dispensation of Grace. That is why we must not hesitate to witness to everyone out there. Those during the tribulation will have to "endure to the end" and that won't be easy will it?

Also, what is this about the Sons and Daughters of God being the Holy Ghost? If I recollect rightly, in the NT when Jesus appeared to the disciples; He spoke of the one that would come and comfort them, He was talking about the HS. The triune Godhead is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Three in one. Same as man is body, soul and Spirit. Man's body is the housing for the real you, the soul, and if a person is saved he is filled with the Holy Spirit, and this is what should govern how a man walks. Just like that the Godhead has different things they do. I actually think that would make an interesting study, as the Bible does let us know what the HS does, what God the Father does and what God the Son does. God the Father sits on the Great White Throne in Heaven and will judge the unsaved one day. God the Son will judge the saved, either by rewards or absence of them at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The Holy Spirit is what guides us, if we allow Him to. Man also has a false notion that they must clean themselves up before they come to Him. Not so, we come just as we are, and then ask Him to clean up the mess we are, that's the only way the mess gets clean. We have to allow the Holy Spirit to work in us.

One thing to think about, in the OT remember when the Jews had to get circumcised, blood was spilt to do this. Now; in the NT, Jesus spilt His blood, which I believe is quite different than ours also; but, will not discuss that right now. When we come to Him and accept Him, the Holy Spirit comes to live in each and every believer, at that moment, the Holy Spirit performs an operation referred to in the NT as the "circumcision without hands". This is the cutting away of the flesh from the soul. Notice in the OT when a person touched a dead thing, they had to wash and stay outside the camp? That is because, they did not have this circumcision without hands, so when the body touched something dirty it dirtied the soul also. Not so now right? Just thoughts I'd like to share with you all.
YSIC
Joyce

 

Bro. Ed, I admit I'm not an expert on end times, but the "falling away" in my opinion is not the rapture but a great apostasy. The word for "falling away" is apostasia or apostasy, a departure from the faith.

 

My Bible(s) say "We died with him":

2 Tim 2:11 (NIV = New International Version):
Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;

2 Tim 2:11 (ESV = English Standard Version)
The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him;

2 Tim 2:11 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
This saying is trustworthy: For if we have died with Him, we will also live with Him;

'We' are the saved, the redeemed, the born-again, the children of God, the Believers (in Christ), the followers of the True Messiah, the Bride of Messiah, the Body of Messiah, the Sons (& Daughters) of Light, the followers of The Way, The Baptized into the death of the Lord, etc. etc. & etc.

In fact, 'baptized' is displaying by water that 'we' have died with the Lord, we are being cleaned by the Lord , and someday in the near future we will be raised (resurrected) to share Glory with the Lord.

Bold changes made ...

 

GE:
Just change your emphasis a bit, and see the big difference!
2 Tim 2:11 (NIV = New International Version):
Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;

2 Tim 2:11 (ESV = English Standard Version)
The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him;

2 Tim 2:11 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
This saying is trustworthy: For if we have died with Him, we will also live with Him;

'We' are the... baptized into the death of the Lord

Each time it is Christ's 'baptism' of HIS death and resurrection and we with Him and in Him and through Him - it has 100% ZERO to do with any 'baptism' of ours! Paul illustrates the new birth - our spiritual regeneration - our coming to faith by grace; our "First Resurrection" without which no one shall enter in into the Kingdom of 'heaven' the KIngdom of God and Christ, now in this 'life', and before the last day of the resurrection of ALL men, either to "the resurrection of LIFE", or, to the "resurrection of damnation".

ONE LAST DAY, ONE RESURRECTION, ONE RETURN OF CHRIST, ONE JUDGMENT, ONE ETERNITY TO FOLLOW of either lost or saved. Nobody is for ever going to lift both feet from this earth.

 

Ed: // In fact, 'baptized' is displaying by water that 'we' have died with the Lord, we are being cleaned by the Lord , and someday in the near future we will be raised (resurrected) to share Glory with the Lord. //

'Displaying' means to show.
Our physical baptism shows what Messiah Jesus has done for us; our physical baptism is NOT what Messiah Jesus has done for us.
As a picture of me is NOT ME; so a water baptism is NOT what Jesus did for me.