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The Determination of Your Salvation Ultimately Rests Upon Whom?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Monergist, Sep 20, 2005.

?

The question of my salvation ULTIMATELY depends on...

  1. God alone.

    14 vote(s)
    87.5%

  2. Myself alone.

    2 vote(s)
    12.5%

  3. God does some, I do the rest.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    This is the crux of the dispute: Upon who's actions and determination does your salvation ULTIMATELY depend?

    If any Arminian/Non-Calvinist will say that their Salvation totally and completely rests upon God alone, without qualification, then I have no dispute with that person. I wouldn't care how they state or hold to any five points and I would no longer care by what term they chose to identify themself and their theology.
     
    #1 Monergist, Sep 20, 2005
  2. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Even when it is said "one must accept the gift of salvation", it is still upon God alone. The act of accepting a gift does not in any way make the gift less than 100% dependant upon the giver.
     
    #2 Johnv, Sep 20, 2005
  3. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Greetings

    The Calvinistic error would take your wonderful response and redefine "gift" as something God capriciously thrusts upon the dead. All this redefinition in order to avoid "boasting" of eternal life.

    But, as you so effortlessly noted, what boasting is involved with accepting a freely offered gift?

    Lloyd
     
    #3 ascund, Sep 20, 2005
  4. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    The question is "Upon who's actions and determination does your salvation ULTIMATELY depend?"

    If its up to you to determine to exercise your will to receive the gift, then your salvation ULTIMATELY rests upon yourself.
     
    #4 Monergist, Sep 20, 2005
  5. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I diagree. Accepting a gift does not in any way make the gift less than 100% dependant upon the giver. Further, a gift cannot be a gift if the gift is forced upon the recipient. Regardless of the Calvinism/Arminianism deabtes, the very fact that salvation is a gift dispels the idea that it is forced upon anyone.

    Unfortunately, many hypercalvinists will continue to falsely insist that the act of receiving somehow makes salvation a condition of yoru own will. This completely discards the inhierent nature of what a gift is.
     
    #5 Johnv, Sep 20, 2005
  6. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    The "gift" in view here is life, eternal life, and all that it entails.

    We have all received the gift of physical life apart from our determination to receive it; we did not 'choose' to be born, that determination was made by another. And yet we rightly thank God for the 'gift' of life.

    When we are 'dead' and trespasses and sins, God graciously grants us life. Thats why its referred to as being 'born-again,' we are given the gift of spiritual life. Ultimately, the determination of the existence of our physical life and our spiritual life rests with God alone.
     
    #6 Monergist, Sep 20, 2005
  7. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Your analogy is flawed, becasue we can wilfully reject the gift of life via suicide. If your analogy were true, then we would be able to reject the gift of eternal life in similar manner, and as such, your analogy does not support a Calvinistic view.
     
    #7 Johnv, Sep 20, 2005
  8. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    My point is that the gift of life is received at birth apart from our decision whether or not to be born. Just like our spiritual birth. We do not ultimately determine whether or not we are born.
     
    #8 Monergist, Sep 20, 2005
  9. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I gotta admit you do have a point there, M.
     
    #9 Johnv, Sep 20, 2005
  10. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Greetings

    Jesus equated the new birth with the simple LOOK of faith to the brazen serpent (Num 21). Although it was clearly anothen ("from above" in John 3) it also required the simple LOOK of faith.

    Your earthy physical analogy fails to match up with Num 21 and John 3. It is a strange hermeneutic that will lift a non-biblical illustration of physical/spiritual above the Master's own illustration of the contrast in physical/spiritual birth.

    Hence, "whosoever believes in Him should not perish."
    Lloyd
     
    #10 ascund, Sep 20, 2005
  11. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    Jesus equated the new birth with being born again.

    Nicodemus, in his confusion, that it had something to do with the will and determination of man--"How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." It is a strange hermeneutic that will take what ultimately depends on the life giving spirit of God and make it dependent on the will and determination of man.

    He compared himself being lifted up to Moses lifting up the serpent. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up."
     
    #11 Monergist, Sep 20, 2005
  12. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    My point is that the gift of life is received at birth apart from our decision whether or not to be born. Just like our spiritual birth. We do not ultimately determine whether or not we are born. [/QB][/QUOTE]

    You may be on to something there monergist. ..good insight
     
    #12 Jarthur001, Sep 20, 2005
  13. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Again, the bottom line is that, regardless of whether one is a Calvinist, Arminian, or anywhere in between, the determination of one's salvation ultimately rests upon God.
     
    #13 Johnv, Sep 20, 2005
  14. here now

    here now Member

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    So the determining factor is not whether one chooses to accept Jesus?
     
    #14 here now, Sep 20, 2005
  15. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    Is it? The non-calvinist dilemna seems to be that the determing factor ultimately rests with the individual.

    It goes something like this "I'm saved because I chose..."

    Of course it would be blasphemy for someone to stand in God's presence and lay claim to salvation on the basis of something that he/she had done.
     
    #15 Monergist, Sep 20, 2005
  16. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    Thankfully, the poll results here are showing that non-calvinists are not consistent with their theology (that's assuming that non-calvinists are voting.)
     
    #16 Monergist, Sep 20, 2005
  17. timothy27

    timothy27 New Member

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    I was thinking the same thing monergist.
     
    #17 timothy27, Sep 20, 2005
  18. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    As I said earlier, even when it is said "one must accept Jesus", it is still upon God alone. The act of accepting a gift does not in any way make the gift less than 100% dependant upon the giver.
     
    #18 Johnv, Sep 20, 2005
  19. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Ultimately, consistent non-Calvinist thinking has to go like this: "God casts a vote, Satan casts a vote, and yours is the deciding vote!" as I heard a Free-Will Baptist put it one time.

    My response to the above is, "Then I'm doomed."
     
    #19 Andy T., Sep 20, 2005
  20. timothy27

    timothy27 New Member

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    Exactly Andy, I have also heard Bereans teach the same thing. It is sad to think that God can do all the work he wants to yet it is for naught unless us humans except it. That basically leaves God powerless, and in no way sovereign.
     
    #20 timothy27, Sep 20, 2005
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