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Featured The Devil in Church People

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rockytopva, Feb 16, 2020.

  1. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    I used to help with youth camp years ago. I have been long aware of mischief coming through church people. I told a brother one day that I was worried about the operations of the devil through church people. Ohh!... He says... The devil cannot go against the blood... And his contention was so great that he reported me over it.

    Years later, at camp meeting, that brother came to me and personally apologized. I graciously accepted, but deep down, wondered what trials the poor man went through to come to the same conclusion, that yes, the devil can operate through church people and that it is a sad truth.

    When we had a plating department in our facility I worked under a chemist. This chemist was very smart and very good at math. When he laid out equations he did so in very neat handwriting and there would be much activity as he turned the results of an analysis into an addition. I would take his calculations and put them in the form of visual basic functions and sub procedures.

    Of all the years I worked with this man I had one opportunity to witness to him. I made my presentation while he was analyzing adhesion under a microscope in which you could hear the sounds... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! After my presentation he just continued to look under the microscope as if ignored everything I said so I just continued in my work. Then... The scratch scratch, scratching stopped! And he speaks!

    "You know what I think it is?" He says while continuing to look under the microscope... "I think it is arrogance!"

    And then, without taking his eyes off the microscope, he continues his work... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! I did not reply but went about my work. Inside I feared he was right. In many cases religion can inhabit too much personal ego. And the father of such ego is the devil himself.
     
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  2. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    I believe the ego is the evidence of evil and a true man of God is meek....

    Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth. - Numbers 12:3

    Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
    - 1 Corinthians 5:6
     
  3. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    And to Ananias, a supposed brother in the Lord, Peter claims that satan filled his heart to do a mischievous thing....

    1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
    2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
    3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
    5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
    6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
    7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
    8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
    9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
    10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
    11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.- Acts 5
     
  4. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    I believe the protestant reformation a good thing... However.... Reading into men like John Calvin and Martin Luther, and some of their hate filled commentaries, makes me wonder if they were not as bad as the people they were reforming from. And some quotes...

    "Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin


    "My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate l. The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs." - Martin Luther
     
  5. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    The Apostle Paul told a Christian congregation....

    My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you... - Galatians 4:17

    If Christ is formed in the character there will be no demonic spirits on the inside. Turn from the Spirit into the flesh then there is much room for evil. I have heard that the devil and the flesh are so akin that it is hard to discern between the two of them.
     
  6. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    John 10:10-13 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
     
  7. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Some of the most wonderful people you will ever meet are in church. Some of the biggest back stabbing snakes you will ever meet are in church. The worst hurts I have ever experienced happened in church.
     
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  8. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    Yes, I am not calling the whole fold bad.
     
  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    My biggest gripe is with pastors who refuse to do what they know is right. They bow to political pressure within the church because doing the right thing is too hard.
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The Devil in Church People

    rocky remember the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Remember what Jesus said to the harvesters - leave them alone. Remember their end when Jesus returns to TCOB.

    Although even tares can be saved.
     
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  11. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    And you have to temper that with Pauls command to administer church discipline.
     
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  12. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    yes it gets tricky. See what Jesus said - leave them alone lest you root up the wheat as well.
    Often discipline of an offending member causes a church split and a root of bitterness.
     
  14. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    So, Paul just made up the command to administer discipline? Not inspired?
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    ? Paul knew full well how difficult church discipline is.
    Phony Christians know how to bleat like a sheep but at the right moment they do their dirty deeds.

    Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
     
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  16. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    What did you say to him? What story did you witness?
     
  17. rockytopva

    rockytopva Active Member
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    I gave him a wonderful little testimony on, “Christ in us, the hope of glory” ...

    26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:- Colossians 1

    I was well pleased with the presentation.... Confounded by the response.... What would you have told him after being told it was all arrogance?
     
  18. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    " Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
    37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38 the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
    39 the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." ( Matthew 13:36-43 ).
     
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  19. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    I would have asked, “Why is it arrogance?”

    But more important than that I would have approached it dramatically differently. That passage in Colossians would likely have been my last choice to witness with.

    Before I continue, I want you to know that I am not trying to put you down or diminish the courage it took for you to share Jesus. I am writing this in hopes that you might do a better job next time.

    I also want to list another source just in case you just don’t like me.

    https://www.amazon.com/Tactics-Game-Discussing-Christian-Convictions/dp/0310282926/ref=nodl_

    So, now that I’ve gotten that out of he way, I’m going to provide some harsh criticism.

    What you said did in fact sound like arrogance - especially in the presentation. You did it while he was doing his job. You didn’t bother to ask him ahead of time if you could talk to him about something and wait until you had his full attention. Your preaching was directed at him as an inanimate object. You were pleased with your presentation. You chose a passage not written in plain English. He had to ask the question for you showing that you really didn’t care what he thought.

    Don’t preach to people while they are doing their job. Just don’t.

    Start by asking an innocent open-ended question such as “What do you know about Jesus?” It is not accusatory and is worded in such a way that the other person doesn’t think you are trying to trap him or her. The question doesn’t seem to have a right or wrong answer. From there a conversation can continue depending on how he answers.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A few references come to mind:
    Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11, ". . . But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. . . ."

    1 John 5:18, ". . . We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. . . ."
    (Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4; 1 John 3:6; Romans 6:14)
     
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