The DIFFERENCE Between USA and Radical Muslims in Torture

I agree, it seems we have overlooked the strength it takes to Love once enemies. It is not an easy or coward thing to do. It was also not an optional or conditional command from our Lord and Savior. He said "by this will men know that you are my disciples".

 

Great stuff, LeBuick!:applause:

 

I will say this: When a soldier enlist to fight for his country, or when a man trains and joins the police force to help keep the peace and enforce the laws within his own community, they are under both standards and orders..... and their duties may require violence and taking of life. This does not make them immoral people nor does it reduce or negate their Christianity. However for each in the course of their duties are acting under the authority of officers who make policies and orders.

While they are expected to know right from wrong, what their limits are and what you as a civilian limits might be are different standards. When doing their work, they may be Christian but they do it as Americans who follow orders and the discipline of their command. If they fight, they fight under the banner of our country's flag and not the cross. If they refuse to follow orders then they are not judged on the basis of their faith but on the basis of whether they were in the narrow range of exception where such is allowed. If they are a Christian and join the military, then they are expected to submit to orders as any other without reservation. If they have reservations then they should not join.

Some of you seem to think that a person who carries out orders of torture should know better and be responsible to stop or refuse. A lot of things might be nice in an ideal world, but if the very people that carry certain acts out on others, have been subjected to these very acts themselves during their training then they are less apt to perceive it as being unusual. It is just like the person who was raised in a family where there was always corporal punishment dealt out by the parents, may not think of it in quite the same way as the person who never experienced it.

I'm done with this topic as I'm content that there are too many stubborn and hypocritical hard heads and hearts and self righteous judges on this board. They talk all too well about loving the enemy and turning the other cheek but have no love or compassion for those from among us who might have been caught up in the ordeal of these nasty decisions and following orders. I know the hypocracy of your words of charity. I had certainly not intended to appear as condoning torture... But if that's the flavor I leave some of your stiff necks with for the day then so be it. As for myself, I've yet to see "torture" defined well enough to suffice for objective judgement in all circumstances without qualifying. The ones who already post and have judgement on such have not shown the intelligence in their communications enough to define it for me either....


BTW, Canadyjd, FWIW, I'm a woman.

 

We have been discussing torture in general and whether we should condone it, as Christians. We certainly haven't singled out a specific person or incident for discussion that I know of.

Wow!! You must be having a really bad day!

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything but........ OK...?

BTW, what does FWIW mean?

peace to youraying:

 

Here is the deference, they are enforcing laws of the community and not making up laws as they go along or lowering their themselves to the practices or behavior of the criminals in order to catch a criminal. If they lower themselves, they are now criminals and in violation of the same laws as the criminals.

A cop killing someone in the line of duty is far different than a cop on a murdering spree. Same with war, soldiers kill in combat but it is unlawful for a soldier to kill a captured combatant who is no longer capable of doing them harm. We have acceptable means of gaining information that work, torture is not one of them.

 

Pastor Paul, our arguments for moral high ground are based on the teachings of Jesus Christ, found in the Word of the Living God. It holds water, every time.

This is exactly the time to apply Christian principles, so that we do not lose ourselves in the world.

Do you have any scripture to base that on, or is it your opinion that God gives governments a "pass" on sin.

Haven't you read in scriptures where God allowed an army to come in and wipe out a people...and then punished that very army for doing so?

God will not allow to sin to go unpunished.

Certainly you are not comparing the righteous punishment of God to the use of torture at the hands of men, are you? You are on very shaky ground, here.

Scripture has the answer, if we will just believe what God has revealed to us.

It has always amazed me that those who shout the loudest about being people of the Word are the very ones who disregard scripture when it doesn't say what they want it to say.

Either you follow scripture or you don't.

On that, we can agree.

peace to youraying:

 

The only way that is true would be if his disciples-- to whom he was speaking-- were each others' enemies (John 13:35).

 

Actually it was in the Sermon on the Mount and was not directed at just the disciples.

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 

"By this the world will know you are my disciples, that you love one another"-- which you claimed and to which I was responding-- is John 13:35.

 

So you're saying it's only a requirement for disciples to Love? I don't understand your point. How about 1 JN 4:8?

 

The point is that you were mixing scriptures and claiming the principles of one demonstrate something said of another.

 

I agree with this.

However, some people have so broadly defined "torture" as to make interrogation/intelligence impossible. Some on this board would propose that changing up someone's daily rhythm is torture. Nothing less than the Four Seasons Manhattan would do for them, I guess...

Oh, the importance of defining one's terms...

 

How interesting that some who say we are not a Christian nation decide they now want to text proof Scripture about our national defense.

Let's keep on topic, shall we? The topic is the difference between USA and radical muslims in torture.

Here are some examples of muslims torturing:

A tire is placed over your child's body and your child is doused with gasoline and lit on fire. You are helpless to defend your child (you are tied up and held at gun point) while your son or daughter is burned alive screaming.

You are held at gun point and tied down made to watch while your wife is gang raped and her breasts cut off.

Get a grip, people.

 

Source please?

peace to youraying:

 

I am utterly shocked at this statement, JC. It is completely inconsistent with many of your other statements on this board regarding war, peace, violence, self-defense, etc. You've made statements that you are not sure if Jesus would allow to kill a criminal who is assaulting you or others. You've made statements about the utter evil of Bush killing innocent Iraqis. You've made statements that our soldiers are murderers for the same. But yet, you support Truman's decision to annihilate over 100,000 innocent non-combatants? What? I am appalled at your hypocrisy. But I suspect that the only reason you think Truman was right, was that he was a Democrat. You reveal yourself to be the most hypocritical, partisan hack this board has ever seen. As much as he annoys me with his muddled thinking, I would love to take 10,000 more posts from Ken H., than to ever see another one of your hypocritical, Democrat lap-dog posts again.

 

King David sawed people up, mangled them with farm implements, cut them up with an axe, and burned them alive.

Nehemiah ripped people's hair out.

All throughout the bible, even in Jesus's parables, it favorably talks about whipping people horribly.

Exodus has specific instructions for directions on how to beat your slaves... it's ok as long as they survive for a day or two after the beating.

Proverbs has several verses on how you should beat fools and even your kids.

Deuteronomy says to take a wicked man, cause him to lie down, and be beaten.

 

God's righteous is revealed in His Word. It is not a matter of opinion.

Again, civilian oversight of military operations is a foundation of our constitution.

It is never a good idea to give men a free pass and stick our heads in the sand, especially in areas of morality. We cannot just trust that the ends justifies the means.

Not only is it morally wrong to do so, but it is shirking our responsibility as well.

peace to youraying:

 

In the late 1900's we had a shortage of engineers. I know this personally. Wer brought in engineers from other countries. If enough Americans had had the guts to take on an engineering degree we wouldn't have been in this situation.