"The doctrine by which the church stands or falls."

Interesting. This is the first time I've heard about this prophesy of John Hus. Where can I find more imformation about this?

 

Somewhere in my reading I remember this quote:

"A righteous man will turn a reproach into a reproof, whereas the ungodly turn a reproof into a reproach."


BGTF

 

You have that backwards don't you?
As a former Catholic I was indoctrnated, catechized, and to this day can quote much of the mass in Latin. It is the Catholic Church that teaches: Learn what we tell you and don't thing about it." 'We train; no brain' No questons asked; everything was spoonfed. After all who would ever question the Pope? How sacrilegious coould one get? How arrogant could one be? Just don't question anything that the Great Holy Mother Church does! It is just not right.---Until one becomes saved!

Then the Spirit of God gives understanding--illumination in comprehending the Scriptures. I began to read the Scriptures on my own. I found out the same truths without Luther or Reformed Baptist or TCGreek, or the many other baptists on this board, without contact with any baptists whatsoever. After one person showed me the truth of the Scripture concerning the gospel, that Jesus came to save, and that salvation was available to all who would accept it on the basis of his shed blood--a message totally contrary to the RCC, I accepted it, and the Lord wonderfully saved me and forgave all my sins--past, present and future. I was justified by faith and faith alone.
My theology is determined by my study of the Bible, and not by the influence of others. I come to my own conclusions. And I rejoice when I see others of different backgrounnds (like Reformed Baptist) who goes to a completely different type of church than I do, and yet believes so similar in so many things as I do. We are more alike in faith than the many factions of Catholics that I know.
And all of this is a direct result of sola scriptura.

 

And how do you know that "your own conclusions" - the conclusions of a person as fallible as the next on this board - are correct?

 

Why is this quesiton even relevant to this thread since the doctrine of justification by faith is defined not by Luther but by the Bible writers of OT and NT centuries before???

Are you saying that "mankind had to wait for Luther" to understand the Bible? Or more specifically - that GOD had to wait for Luther before He could know how to save people by faith?

in Christ,

Bob

 

Would you have preferred that he ask the Pope to tell him what to think?

What was "the other option" in your view?

in Christ,

Bob

 

That is of course open to argument and the witness of the Early Church is not on your side.

No, that seems to be your argument - and that of the OP

[ETA - The Lutherans don't say quite what you'd like them to say on the subject in any event]

 

Why do we always have to look to Rome for the alternative? What about the ECFs and the witness of the Undivided Church prior to 1054?

 

Ok fine - are you contending that DHK should have gone to the ECF's instead of reading the Bible and accepting it's teaching on justification by faith?

When DHK came to
Rom 5:! "Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" should he have said "WoW that is SOOO confusing I need an ECF to tell me what to think because Paul is just not cutting it"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Why is this quesiton even relevant to this thread since the doctrine of justification by faith is defined not by Luther but by the Bible writers of OT and NT centuries before???

Fine - then show an alternative to the texts of Romans3 and Romans 5 that teach this doctrine clearly.

in Christ,

Bob

 

"A text without a context is a pre-text for a proof-text". In the words of DHK's compatriot, Shania Twain, "That don't impress me much!"

 

Are you saying that "mankind had to wait for Luther" to understand the Bible? Or more specifically - that GOD had to wait for Luther before He could know how to save people by faith?

ON the contrary my argument is that Luther was correct in finding this doctrince clearly revealed in scripture. My argument is the REAL "Primary" ECF's are the Bible writers!

in Christ,

Bob

 

Except that justification sola fide was not preached prior to 1517. How, then, was someone saved in, say, 800AD?

 

The false notion that "until a Catholic church leader preaches it and records it in a form that viewers find centuries later, God can't actually do it" does not seem to be working for you.

The first ECF to preach this in the NT was Paul.

Oh - and we can still read what he wrote.

But aside from that - what is your actual Bible objection? Have you made an actual case?

Perhaps a quote from one of my favorite ECFs will help to begin your argument --


Rom 3
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom 5
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God[/b] through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.



in Christ,

Bob

 

Show me where and who.

The point is, Bob, that nobody, Catholic or Orthodox, was preaching sola fide in 800AD, so if "faith comes by hearing", then how was your Average Joe in 800 going to be saved?