"The doctrine by which the church stands or falls."

Ac 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

HP: Is this the verse you have in mind as supporting the idea that repentance is a gift? If not could you show us the verse that you believe supports your assertion?

 

Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God. It is a "turn around." Once I was rebellious against God and living for the world in sin. Then I repented and got saved (by putting my faith in Christ and his shed blood). Now I am living in submission to him. I have changed my attitude from rebellion to submission; from living in sin toward living for God. Repentance is always toward God.
It is not a work. It is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude to God.

 

HP: Is man active or passive in repentance? Does repentance always involve the will of man in that ‘turning’ you speak of or is man simply passive, reacting to force or coercion by God?

Driving to work today I saw something that might be used as an illustration. As I was going down the road I saw a tail of a squirrel standing erect in the road twitching what seemed to be nervously back and forth. As I approached it, it became apparent what the seeming consternation was all about. Evidently a large truck or several cars had run smooth over it and had smashed it about as flat as a pancake. I don’t think the body and head could have been more than a half inch think at the most. Still yet, the tail had been basically untouched and was standing erect, waving back and forth in the breeze of the automobiles passing as if though it was still alive.

Now the tail was indeed moving as if though it had life, yet the animation was coming from the force or coercion of the wind of the passing motorists. The squirrel was indeed passive in spite of its erect switching tail. In the case of repentance, are we thought to be resembling that dead squirrel and the movement of whatever brings about this ‘repentance’ just due to force or coercion placed upon the individual by God in granting him that animated reaction of turning? Is the will of man passive or active in this turning, in this 'changing of the mind' or 'attitudes' you speak of? Is it simply responding to outside stimuli as was that tail of that dead squirrel, or is it involved in the process of voluntarily forming intents of the will?

 

yes -

Acts 5
29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.
30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.
31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

It appears that both forgiveness and repentance are "granted" as a gift. So also is the Holy Spirit "given" as a gift.

But just as God so Loved the World that He GAVE -- so that ANYONE who believes can be saved so also The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment John 16:7-8

Under conviction we may "choose" to confess - and claim the gift of repentance.

in Christ,

Bob

 

HP: How do we receive as a gift something God commands us to do?

If the Holy Spirit is a gift and even the unrighteous partake of its benefits according to your statement, can it be said they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit?

 

No one is ever coerced to be saved. Repentance is always active. Inasmuch as one chooses to be saved, chooses to receive Christ as Savior, he chooses to repent. He is never forced to do so. Certainly there may be a conviction of the Holy Spirit present, but the repentance is on the part of the one needing salvation. It is a change of mind in respect to one's attitude toward God--A change from rebellion to submission; a change from wickedness to Godliness; a change from a sinful life to a Godly life. It is always a change of attitude, and it is always from--towards

 

I like your biblical definition of repentance DHK :thumbs:

I believe repentance is a gift from God but we must have a desire (choose) to want that gift

 

HP: Dittto!:thumbs:

More later.

 

I too like your definition. However, it strikes me that you are describing a 'work', in so far as it is an act of the human will.

 

HP: Now ole Matt is thinking. :thumbs:

 

An act of the human will is not necessarily a work.
That is why it says:
For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast (Eph.2:8,9).
Exercising the human mind to believe, to trust, to have faith, is not a work. Doing is a work. Believing is not.
Changing one's attitude is not a work. I am not actively doing something like baptizing someone or receiving baptism. That is a work. That is something that is done.

 

So you mean when one "exercises the mind" that one is not actively doing anything, that this "exercising" is instead some passive thing that is done to that one by another agent?
Or that there is no work or effort of one's will involved in "changing" one's mind or attitude, but rather this change is done to that one while that one sits passively?

(Things keep getting curioser and curioser.... :smilewinkgrin: )

Or perhaps Paul is referring in that verse (Eph 2:8,9) to some meritorious works that one may do (such as the works of the Torah) to try to earn salvation, rather than to the works of love (coming from a faith relationship with Christ) without which we cannot be saved. After all, it was this same Paul who wrote to the Galatians that neither circumcision (ie a works of Torah) nor uncircumcision (ie the lack thereof) avails anything, but rather "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6).

This is also the same Paul who wrote to the Romans that eternal life would be given to those who work what is good (Romans 2:7,10) and that indignation, wrath, tribulation, and anguish would be given to those who work/do what is evil (2:8-9) as God "renders to each one according to his deeds" (Romans 2:6).

...Which is of course consistent with what CHRIST Himself taught stating that the "resurrection of life" would be for "those who have done good", while the "resurrection of condemnation" would be for "those who have done evil." (John 5:28-29)

 

HP: Would you consider adultery as a work?

 

HP: Can you name one ‘work’ that is not the product of an act of the human will? Before we ‘do something’ we have to will it. The mind has to formulate an intent antecedent to the doing would you not agree? The ‘doing’ is nothing more than the necessitated ends of the mind willing and formulating intents. Again I can not even imagine any ‘work’ that does not have it impetus in a choice of the will, in the determination of formulating an intent, can you?

You seem to want to make all works separate from the minds processes, when the truth is that the work is determined what it will in fact be predetermined by the mind, the body only carrying out the directions of the formed intents of the will. One can only do as the mind directs it to do. The doing sustains to the will the relationship of necessity, not freedom. The choice is not one in the same with the doing. The choice, the intent, the motivation and all morality of any work is determined antecedent to the actual carrying out of ones intents.

Clearly there are works of the flesh and sin, and works of righteousness. The outward acts may be identical, but the motivation of the heart, the intent of the heart whether of love towards God and man or pure selfish motivation determines the morality of the work, not the work itself. When dealing in the arena of morality, and morals, you cannot separate the willing from the doing for it is an intrinsic part of the doing and gives to the doing, i.e., determines its moral character. If an action has any moral character properly predicated of it, it must be the product of and subsequent to the moral formation of an intent formulated and determined first in the mind antecedent to any ‘doing.’

You certainly can have an action without a formed intent, but it would have no morality attached to it. We might call it an involuntary action or a involuntary reflex reaction. No morality could be attached to such actions. Such involuntary action would not have the muster to be called a work in any righteous or sinful connotation.

I would conclude that every act of the human will is a work of one kind or another. How else could God predicate sin, such as in the case of adultery, to that which lies antecedent to the doing? "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." If a man lusts after a women in his heart, Scripture affirms that the work of adultery is in effect consummated regardless if one is ever able to carry out ones intentions. If one hates his brother, God sees that tantamount to the work of killing another, regardless if one has the opportunity to ever carry out the work. God sees the motive and the intent formed as the heart of the work generating moral praise and blame, regardless whether or not the work is ever carried out.

 

While waiting on DHK to respond, let me make just a brief statement with a question whether or not the statement is understood by the reader.

We should all understand that if a action is moral and blameworthy or praiseworthy, there is behind that action and intent formulated by the will that sustains to the action the relationship of a cause. In morals intent is everything. Is there any misunderstanding or disagreement with these statements? Do I need to clarify myself ? Am I confusing anyone?

 

Doubting Thomas,

In lieu of DHK, who will probably give a much better answer when he arrives, I'll respond.

Whats curious is you and others being so disbelieving of what scripture teaches.

You sound almost *EXACTLY* like a hard core Catholic I once encountered on another board. I would, on threads like this one, mention our "excercising" faith and faith alone to be justified (apart from works of course) and this poor guy would chime in with something like...

"EXCERCISING faith, Mike. I thought you didnt believe in justification by works? Sounds like a work to me!"

Needless to say of course...faith is not in any way a work regarding justification. It cant possibly be.

Almighty God contrasts "works" and "faith" over and over again in the scriptures, setting then completly against one another in this regard.

One of the most clear....

Faith can not possibly be a work in this context, since God has made that option impossible.

God bless,

Mike

 

Doubting Thomas,

That...this weird differentiating of "meritorious" vs "in love" works...is classic Catholic nonsensical goobledegoop that they are forced to concoct in order to somehow find some way to squeeze some "good works" into Gods justification...wich of course is through faith alone.

(Not saying you are Catholic of course, I have no idea. But you are using arguments that are *classic* Romish arguments.)

Works, whether begun by faith or not, or "working through love" or not, has absolutly nothing to do with our justification. We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

"21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

Good points!
It seems in that argument, it is just a matter of trading certain "Old Testament" laws for supposed "New Testament" ones, and otherwise, nothing has changed.

 

Okay, so here's a challenge for you, Mike:
Find ONE verse which clearly states we are "justified by faith alone."
Just ONE.

While you are looking (in vain) for such a verse, I'll go ahead and cite the only verse in the Bible that has "justification" and "faith alone" and "works" all together in one clear statement by our Lord's brother (who was the chief shepherd in the early Jerusalem church)....

"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

Now if you want to accuse James of "concocting" some "class nonsensical Catholic gobbledegoop", go ahead, but I must warn you that you are on some dangerously thin ice in doing so. Rather, the Lord's brother here is in fact accurately handing down the deposit given to him from Christ, teaching the truth when he states that faith without works is dead...and a dead faith ain't gonna ultimately save or justify no one!

Here again are the words of Christ Himself in case you missed it before:

"Do not marvel at this: for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29).

Oh, I am certainly catholic...just not "Romish". :tongue3:
(see my sig below)

Again, it's the "faith alone" part that's not Scriptural.

You err in ignoring the context of much of Paul's epistles in which he's repeatedly addressing the fact that it's not necessary to keep the Jewish law (the Torah) in order to be a Christian. (This was in response to the Judaizers and those of judaizing tendencies who were insisting at that time that one did have to keep the Torah to be a Christian.) Paul in his polemics is primarily considering the works of the Law, and particularly the external signs thereof--ie, circumcision, Jewish feastdays/Sabbaths; dietary restrictions, etc. That is why he makes it clear in his letter to the Galatian church that it's not the presence of absence of these markers of Torah that matters for a Christian, but a faith in Christ which demonstrates itself in loving obedience:
"For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avail anything, but faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6)

And lest one thinks that Paul teaches that God doesn't consider any of our "works" (in general) at His final judgement of mankind, here is this clear statement to the contrary in his epistle to the Romans:

"[God] who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'; eternal life to do those who by patient continuence in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 2:6-10)

In teaching that God will 'render to each one according to his deeds', Paul is of course just being consistent with Christ's own clear statement in John 5:28-29 quoted above. So if you have a problem with the notion of God ultimately rendering eternal life (the resurrection of life") to those who have done good, don't shoot the messenger--take it up with the Lord and His apostles who all clearly taught this truth.

 

DT, expect a response involving "thunder". In other news, bears in forested areas don't use rest-rooms and elderly German in the Vatican admits to being a bit Catholic. Film at 11.