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Featured The Doctrine of Preservation

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, Sep 15, 2013.

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Does God preserve his Word?

Poll closed Oct 15, 2013.
  1. God does not preserve the Bible

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. God preserves the Bible miraculously

    3 vote(s)
    17.6%
  3. God preserves the Bible providentially but not miraculously

    12 vote(s)
    70.6%
  4. I don't know

    1 vote(s)
    5.9%
  5. Other

    1 vote(s)
    5.9%
  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    No you're not. You haven't given a single Scripture wherein God's providence is mentioned or portrayed.
    I completely disagree with this paragraph. First of all, the concept I hold is not man-made. It is based on many, many Scriptures, such as Prov. 21:1--"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." And "my concept" distinguishes clearly between providence and miracles.
    God's preservation extends to the original language texts, which are His creation. Translation is an effort of human preservation to which God gives providential help.
     
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Yes, and not only these things. God will bring together the right team for the translation work if it is of Him.

    Having the translation exactly as the originals is an impossibility. Grammar is different between languages, words have different ranges of meaning, social structure is different between the societies in which the languages are used, etc.
     
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Granted, there are some 20th century theologians who use the term "miraculous" in connection with Scripture preservation, as I learned researching for this thread.

    However, in order to say technically that providence, in particular in Scripture preservation is miraculous, you have to redefine miracle as something not necessarily contrary to the laws of nature. There is nothing in Scripture or history which is miraculous in Bible preservation. There were no angels guarding manuscripts of the Bible, there was no light from heaven helping a scribe copy a manuscript, no scribe ever saw special manuscript paper appear miraculously before him. So by the normal definition, no miracles have ever occurred in Scripture preservation.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I provided verses where the concept of provision was presented, with man acting as the agent. I said, when this same action, providing for needs through foresight, is done by God, then it is Divine providence. OTOH, you gave one verse, Proverbs 21:1 where providence is neither mentioned or portrayed.

    God's sovereign actions to sustain His creation according to His purpose makes His miracles a part of that providence. Thus your question uses Providence more narrowly,
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Another View

    I think words have meanings and when your translate those meanings into another language, you are translating words. When I read the red letter words in my Bible, I believe I am reading the words of Christ that will endure. The message and not the language is what Jesus was saying with "His words" will endure. Just as with the testimonies, it is the message and not letters arranged from right to left that will endure.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    What is the distinction between preserving God's testimonies and words by providence versus by miracle. In the providential view, God used people to copy and store His special revelation, and He arranged circumstances such that the work product was sufficient for His purpose. Thus as the inspired words say, "all scripture is profitable for instruction and rebuke. But, human fallibility entered into the process, and therefore corruptions occurred. Sometimes, copiests, striving to be helpful added to the text. Omissions occurred. And if we include translation in the providential preservation, we have mistaken or less than the best words and phrases used which degrades the message to some degree.

    On the other hand, if we are pushing miraculous preservation, then the copiests never made an error and perfectly copied the perfect originals, and those God used to miraculously translate the text, used the perfect words to convey the actual message without introducing any error.
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    You have got to be kidding. When God moves that heart of a king to do His will, even when the king doesn't realize it, you don't believe that is the providence of God? What pray tell is it then?????
    Give me one single Scripture for your view of God's providence (not man's). You still haven't. Here are many more Scriptures proving the traditional view of God's providence I have given: Ps. 103:19, Dan. 4:35, Eph. 1:11, Ps. 104:14, Matt. 5:45, Matt. 6:30. I could give many, many more. God is always actively involved in working to accomplish His will providentially through nature and in Man.

    Ps. 135:6-7 is particularly appropriate: "6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places. 7 He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries."
     
  8. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Explain how the disuse of Koine Greek coming about in less than 50 years of John's last writing is "just a coincidence."

    Explain how at least three distinct textual families from several far-removed locales "just happened."

    Explain how an Arab sheep-herder looking for a lost sheep "stumbled across by accident" scrolls that were over 2,100 years old.

    From your perspective, I guess salvation itself isn't a miracle, either, given you seem to desire miracles to have flash and glitz to them.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Nonsense

    Again, you are simply renaming God's sovereign actions to sustain His creation as providence. Not what the word means.

    I gave you the biblical meaning of providence, and supported that view with 5 verses.

    1) God exercising control over the thoughts of man reflects miraculous intervention, not arranging the events in the unfixed future to fulfill foreseen needs. Strike one.

    2) I supplied numerous verses, i.e. Psalm 119:152, that demonstrate God's promised providence. Strike two.

    3) Your passage (Psalm 135:6-7) simply describes God's sustaining actions to provide the natural environment, whereas His actions to sustain His special revelation availability as promised is the "providence" put forth in the OP. Strike three!!!
     
  10. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I enjoy reading your posts "disconnected",
    JoJ sleeps during our day, the bum :sleeping_2:

    It's interesting that the word "miracle" is only rarely used in English translations, there's a reason for this; the various words used in Hebrew and Greek are better translated as "wonder", "mighty work", and "sign".

    Scriptures tell us that God has been "sustaining all things by his powerful word" (Hebrews 1:3).
    They also clearly communicate that God supernaturally moves among men and drives human affairs.
    These actions, while divinely directed, are not considered miraculous; his guidance blends smoothly into the usual workings of nature.

    But on some occasions, God intervenes into nature in what we call might rightly call a miracle.

    A miracle is an intervention of God outside of the established course of nature.

    Each of your examples (barring God's salvation of human kind) are interesting, even perhaps coincidental, but do not boldly proclaim God's direct intervention outside of the bounds of the nature he created.

    Rob
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think what John is stating here is that while God is directly involved in both aspects of inspirationandpreservation of the sacred texts...

    Inspiration is the product of the HolySpirit in a determined/direct fashion, as without Him directly intervening inthe writtings, could not be inerrant and infallible texts .

    perserving those texts was God watching out over them in the"natural order" of things, just as He did for the jews in ester , as while he is not named there, He is providence uiseen in behind the scenes working all things out!

    he made sure that copies of the originals survived, but did not inspire those copies!
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Okay, tell you what, let's just agree to disagree here. You want to redefine providence, I want to stick with the traditional meaning. Fine. As you yourself pointed out a couple of posts ago this doesn't necessarily contribute to the discussion. Maybe you'll want to start a thread in the theology section and try to get someone to agree with you. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Don't you get it? These are all providential actions of God, but not miracles. That Arab sheep herder did not say, "Wow, that's incredible," but likely, "Maybe I can make some dough off this." Even today no one looks at the Dead Sea scrolls on display and says, "It's a miracle! That can't happen in nature."

    But don't make the mistake of thinking providence is therefore inferior to miracles. Though we often don't even know when God is providentially at work, yet providence is a wonderful thing that accomplishes His will.
    Salvation is absolutely a miracle, since it goes completely against nature, and when it happens it gives immediate glory to God, with people often saying, "Wow, look what God did for that person!" Three years ago we saw a yakuza gangster trust Christ. He moved away, but recently he called me to say he had finished reading the OT. His salvation was an obvious miracle.
    Well that's a nice turn of phrase, but it is entirely inadequate to describe a miracle. You could say that Herod had flash and glitz when people called him "a god," but that was obviously not a miracle, and God killed him in spite of his flash and glitz. "Shock and awe" is better! When people see a miracle they say, "Wow, look at that incredible thing God did!" rather than, "Isn't that neat." Just study miracles in the Bible and you'll see!

    There are two main Greek words used in the NT for "miracle." One is semeion, or "sign," which is "a miraculous event contrary to the usual course of nature and intended as a pointer or means of confirmation" (Friberg's Anlex Greek lexicon, through Bibloi 8). The other word is dunamis, or "power," which is "supernatural manifestations of power" (ibid). All through the Bible we have people looking at God's miracles and saying, "Wow, look at what God did."

    Nobody looks at an Arab finding manuscripts in the desert as a sign pointing to God's power, or a supernatural event. It is nonetheless the providential work of God.
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Now I think you've got it. Inspiration was a miracle, going against human nature to produce error-free, perfect documents of God's revelation. Preservation is the providential work of God to keep that revelation intact in spite of human failures.

    For example, there is disagreement among textual critics in the book of Revelation concerning a name of Christ, "Alpha and Omega." Modern critical texts and even the Byzantine Textform leave it out in Rev. 1:11. However, it appears in the same context in 1:8 in all Greek texts (as well as in 21:6 & 13). So this precious name of Christ has been preserved in all Greek mss and all versions, though it may be missing in various texts in that one verse.
     
    #54 John of Japan, Sep 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2013
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Hah! You just wish you could. :D But then I work all "night."

    Anyway, good post.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, lets agree to disagree. You are saying "Providence" means "the care, guardianship and control exercised by God." Certainly a valid and traditional meaning, but it includes His miracles. Therefore a more narrow meaning is implied by your OP. Thus providing for specific foreseen needs, such as preserving God's words and testimonies is the correct meaning of the word as used in your OP, which separates out God's contravention of natural occurrence, i.e. miracles.

    I do not think anyone expressed an understanding of the implication of quoting a translation, i.e. the Septuagint, as scripture. This clearly indicates God preserved the "testimonies" in at least one translation for use by His inspired writers. Thus, at a minimum, we can say God's providential preservation of His words and testimonies includes superintending some translation done by uninspired men.

    Does anyone deny this doctrine?
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for bringing this up, since as you say no one has yet. To me, the usage of the LXX in the NT proves that the Holy Spirit-moved writers of the NT did not consider the LXX to be inspired and inerrant. Why? Because sometimes they retranslate from the Hebrew rather than using the LXX. Now they don't do this every time the LXX is mistaken, but when the mistake bears on the NT point they are trying to make. So to the writers of the NT, the authority still resided in the original language document, the Hebrew OT.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Exactly, to be providentially preserved does not mean preserved by inspiration and therefore inerrant. Just as copies of the original text in the same language were not always without error nor were the copies inspired.

    Thus far, then everyone agrees that:

    1) The bible teaches in at least 5 verses, that God preserves His words and testimonies in some manner.

    2) God used translated versions of His words and testimonies stating they were scripture.

    3) God said all scripture, which then includes at least parts of some translations, is profitable for instruction and rebuke.

    The above therefore presents the actual biblical doctrine of providential preservation of scripture.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Doctrine of Providential Preservation of Scripture

    As a Minimalist, I look at verses and ask, "What is the least that God could be saying?" If we look at Romans 15:4 we see that at least the intended message had been preserved from when it was written to when it provided its encouragement in the 1st century. We cannot draw the conclusion it was preserved perfectly, but only sufficiently for God's purpose. This does not rule out inerrancy in the original autographs, or providential preservation. It simply acknowledges the truth clearly taught by Paul.

    Similarly in 2 Timothy 3:16 we see Paul teaching that the OT scriptures were trustworthy and reliable, hence preserved adequately, for instruction, and reproof. Now more can be read into it, but less cannot be claimed without loss of integrity.

    Lets underline the difference between Providential and Miraculous Preservation. My understanding is "providence" refers to God "providing" for us in various ways. He established natural law and to the extent nature provides for our needs, i.e. abundant fish in the sea for food, we can thank God for His providence. But the second way God provides is by His altering or not, the unfixed future such that His purpose is fulfilled, thus needed rain may come from providential number 1 or providential number 2, but either way, we are to be thankful.

    The third way God provides for us is through creative miracles, where He intervenes and causes events that had nature run its course, would not have occurred. Jesus walking on water, or arising from the dead were sign and wonder miracles to demonstrate God was the cause, rather than natural happenstance.

    Now lets consider a very good verse, which supposedly supports the doctrine of Divine Preservation of Special Revelation, the Inspired Scriptures of the Old and New Testament.

    Matthew 24:35 says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." Here we have something that cannot be sidestepped, Christ's words refers to Special Revelation to us, and therefore will be "preserved" over time so that we may hear the gospel and believe and be saved. This was so important a teaching that we can find the very same "words" at Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33.

    Another verse, and the last I will offer is Psalm 119:152. Here the text refers to "testimonies" that endure forever. Just as with Christ's words enduring, they (words and testimonies) must endure in written form. These verses in God's word specifically and clearly teach God's promise to preserve His word to the extent His purpose is fulfilled.

    In summary, Romans 15:4, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, and Psalm 119:152 teach the doctrine of Providential Preservation of Scripture. This includes to a degree, even some parts of some translations, as demonstrated by inspired
    New Testament authors quoting the Septuagint as scripture.

    God Bless
     
    #59 Van, Sep 20, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2013
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How do you view the differences between inspiration/providences in the scriptures , and how does this relate to bible translations?
     
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