The Doctrine of Total Depravity contradicts SCRIPTURE

That's not Total Depravity. Total Depravity is the inability of humans to do anything perfect in accordance with God's plan.

If Total Depravity were to be defined as you state, then you'd be right to say it's not scriptural.

 

That's not Total Depravity. Total Depravity is the inability of humans to do anything perfect in accordance with God's plan.

If Total Depravity were to be defined as you state, then you'd be right to say it's not scriptural. </font>[/QUOTE]No Johnv, Skandelon's description of total depravity is correct; we are DEAD in our trespasses and sins! Dead means Dead! I, Michael of Hamtramck Michigan present myself to you all as living PROOF of Total Depravity! All of my righteousness is as filthy rags!

 

Mike, I'm interested to hear how you reconcile your views of Total Depravity with the scripture's teaching of Hardening. Are we born hardened, or do we become that way only after hearing, seeing, understanding and refusing to believe? </font>[/QUOTE]Give me the specific Scripture passages you wish to discuss Skandelon, and we can go from there but I will start with this: You ask "Are we born hardened, or do we become that way only after hearing, seeing, understanding and refusing to believe?" The short answer is, we are BORN hardened; hence the reason for a New Birth. If we are NOT born hardened then we should simply be able to simply get the Gospel to young children all over the world to believe on Jesus Christ, even in our own household! But as you well know, rarely does it ever really work out that way!

 

That's not Total Depravity. Total Depravity is the inability of humans to do anything perfect in accordance with God's plan.

If Total Depravity were to be defined as you state, then you'd be right to say it's not scriptural. </font>[/QUOTE]How can any one do what they do not know exists? Are we born with the Plan of God in our brain?

When did you first KNOW of God's plan? Probably in your late teens or early twenties.

That is why Total Depravity is a bogus, strawman, false doctrine!

 

That's not Total Depravity. Total Depravity is the inability of humans to do anything perfect in accordance with God's plan.

If Total Depravity were to be defined as you state, then you'd be right to say it's not scriptural. </font>[/QUOTE]How can any one do what they do not know exists? Are we born with the Plan of God in our brain?

When did you first KNOW of God's plan? Probably in your late teens or early twenties.

That is why Total Depravity is a bogus, strawman, false doctrine! </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew2, I humbly submit to you that I am having a bit of trouble following your line of thought here.
Will you clarify for a brother? Have patience with me throughout this discourse.

 

This is a Prophet speaking by the Holy Spirit what WOULD BE as to this situation! This is NOT God complaining that His people would not hear Him; this is God Proclaiming that His people would not hear Him! God NEVER COMPLAINS!

 

As to your children believing the Gospel by your tender loving fatherly hand, may God ever bless you and your whole house for you being such a great father to them! Give God all the Glory! Amen!!

 

As to the question of why God does things can anybody answer me as to why God took David and Bathsheba's babys life? What did the baby do?

God does what He will do, when He will do it!
He need give NO REASONS for His actions!
That is enough for me!

 

No one is disputing this. We all agree that God can do anything He wishes to do. The debate is over what God has done and will do based upon what he has revealed to us through his word. Let's stick to that if you don't mind. Thanks </font>[/QUOTE]Skandelon, with all due lovingkindness, you are way too focused on the mechanics of all of this without, I am afraid, looking at the MUCH BIGGER picture our Gracious Heavenly Father Draws for us!

 

OK, Mike

You say that Total Depravity is the condition of man which keeps man from doing the plan of God in his life. And you elude to that condition being part of man from birth.

Well, when did you learn of the plan of God? Were you born with God's plan imbedded in your brain? No, not hardly, you had to learn first that there is such a plan, then you had to learn how to execute the plan, then you had to actually execute the plan.

So when did you learn there was a "God's Plan"? How old in physical years were you? If you are typical, you learned there is such a thing as a "plan of God" in your mid to late teens or somewhere in your twenty's. So is it any wonder that you could not do the plan of God? You have to know there is one, then learn what it is then decide whether or not you are going to do it!

Goes right along with Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Total depravity is a vile worthless doctrine intended to keep man suppressed in a state of worthlessness. God did not create us to be worthless. Sin caused us to be separated from God and the doctrine of "total depravity" keeps man from overcoming sin through confession and forgiveness followed by man's repentance from sin.

Total Depravity is a doctrine from Satan himself! Man makes Satan gloat in victory because "man cannot overcome even the smallest of sins", therefore man is totally depraved, useless, unworthy of salvation!

HOGWASH!

 

Yelsew, I love you from the bottom of my heart but you do err on a fundemental point: God's Plan for my life started before the foundation of the world without regard for when I percieved of it, that is irrelevent from my standpoint!

 

As for the rest of your post Yelsew, well:

The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength Proverbs 8:13-14

10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. Proverbs 13:10

12 For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak. Ps 59:12

 

Mike, with all due respect, if you don't want to deal with the issues just say so. I'm trying to engage you (or others) concerning the Calvinistic misconceptions of Total Depravity as it related to what the bible clearly teaches about hardening. If you don't want to discuss that please don't clutter up this thread, I would like to deal with people who want to debate the issues. I say this with love and even a smile. </font>[/QUOTE]Then we will leave it at that Skandelon; I am comfortable with what I believe concerning this subject. I love you too, and will always!