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Featured The Doctrine of Total Depravity

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by evangelist6589, Aug 20, 2013.

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  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    WinMan I am a follower of Christ and thats exactly what I am. When you get to Heaven will Jesus ask if you were a Calvinist or an Arminian? You seem to think that He will.
     
    #21 evangelist6589, Aug 21, 2013
  2. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    I was in Arminian waters at BJU. I believed that man had a FREE-WILL and could choose salvation apart from the work of the HS. I believed evangelism was all about the methods and the results. I was taught that open air was not effective as it produced few results. I believed that man could resist the calling of God and could fall from grace. But my biggest argument was for FREE-WILL and that man can choose God without the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Then it all changed when I read Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by JI Packer. It also changed when I started listening to Way of the Master, and reading books from Reformed such as John MacArthur, Washer, Piper, RC Sproul and the like. I admit I do not have it all together and did not fully comprehend everything at BJU. But frankly BJU oftened stayed out of these kinds of arguments and debates and for good reason. I know that Reformed were in the minority at BJU but they were there. I know that I was first introduced to Way of the Master there by a student, but the program was heavily frowned upon there, but I think so not because of theology, but because of issues of separation which BJU preaches to the core.

    Once again I will say that I lean more Calvinist than Arminian and so I may be more Calvinistic like a Erwin Lutzer or a David Jeremiah. But then again I tend to agree more with John MacArthur, Ray Comort, and Paul Washer in most areas over Lutzer, and Jeremiah, so I definitely lean more Reformed.

    Winman thinks that one needs to believe with 100% of Reformed to be one and this is false.
     
    #22 evangelist6589, Aug 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2013
  3. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    How many times to you have to be told that this is not an Arminian belief? This is Pelagianism.
     
    #23 InTheLight, Aug 21, 2013
  4. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    I just read a chapter in Ashamed of the Gospel by MacArthur and he explained clearly unconditional election. I also read a chapter in Chosen but Free and he argued that faith is not a gift for the elect, and those that have not been elected could choose God. Then I read a chapter in David Jeremiah's book God in You and he also clearly says that God has to do the conversion and grant the new birth, so he would be a Calvinist like John MacArthur. Bur Norm Geisler is not one.

    Can you explain Pelagianism please? This is something you have not done. Nevermind I found an article. Well this seems to be the doctrine that Norm Geisler may be teaching in his book.
     
    #24 evangelist6589, Aug 21, 2013
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You cannot believe in Conditional Election and be Calvinist.

    To say you can reject Unconditional Election and still be a Calvinist is like saying you can reject Jesus Christ and still be a Christian. You can't do it.

    Calvinists believe in "monergism", that salvation is 100% of God. You are so depraved you cannot possibly choose to believe in God, therefore God must choose you and regenerate you before you have this choice. Therefore his choice is not based upon the condition that you believed.

    Non-Cals or Arminians believe in "synergism". We believe that men are indeed sinful, yet we retain the ability to choose to believe in Christ or not. Many non-Cals or Arminians believe God chooses whom he foresees in his foreknowledge who will believe in time. This is what you claimed you believed in another post.

    Calvinists do not believe we choose God as you believe. They believe that is absolutely impossible, you are too depraved to do so, therefore God cannot possibly choose you according to this condition.

    You can insist that you can reject Unconditional Election and are still a Calvinist, but you are fooling yourself, such a thing is not possible. If you reject Unconditional Election, then you are NOT a Calvinist or Reformed.
     
    #25 Winman, Aug 21, 2013
  6. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Then I believe in unconditional election but do not fully understand how ti works. I read a chapter on the doctrine from a Macarthur book, and also from a David Jeremiah book where he clearly said that God grants the new birth and they cannot choose it for themselves. This seems so different than what Norm Geisler taught in his book Chosen but free.
     
    #26 evangelist6589, Aug 21, 2013
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    It is different! If Norm Geisler believes man retains the ability to choose Jesus, then he cannot truly be a Calvinist. The Calvinist believes God must first choose you unconditionally and regenerate you before you can have the will, desire, or ability to believe. You simply cannot believe in this system.

    If Unconditonal Election is true, then only those whom God has chosen can be saved, all those whom God passes over will be lost and there is nothing they can do about it. In fact, they will never desire to be saved if this doctrine is true.

    Many Calvinists reject the idea that God also chooses to reprobate those whom he passes over, but Calvin himself said this is nonsense.

    Calvin insists (and I believe rightly so), that if God unconditionally elects only some people to be saved, then he reprobates all the rest whom he chose to pass over.

    Is this what you believe about God?

    You really can't be a 4 point Calvinist.

    http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?416
     
    #27 Winman, Aug 21, 2013
  8. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    #28 Winman, Aug 21, 2013
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    E6589-
    just keep serving God and studying.Once you see it, all the pieces fit together just fine.....there is much to study.
    It is not like signing up for a sports team. Study so you can more faithfully serve God....the Spirit is already opening much truth to you...it will continue to grow in you!


     
    #29 Iconoclast, Aug 21, 2013
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  10. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Thank you so much for this info brother. Bye the way what book did you get these quotes from?
     
    #30 evangelist6589, Aug 21, 2013
  11. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    If you believed that....you were NOT an Arminian.
     
    #31 Inspector Javert, Aug 24, 2013
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    YEA but is that whay BJU teaches? Wow
     
    #32 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 24, 2013
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