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The Doctrines of Grace and Evangelism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Herald, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    To your first illustration... that is not a good equivalent for humans. However, it is a very close illustration of God's situation. God sacrificing his son to save those who were born into the family of sin is justice in the sense that sin's penalty is being carried out. But was it just for Jesus to take our place? Of course not.

    I believe not enough is put into the representation view. I think even the name "adam" is closer to a title that sets him up as the representative of the adamic race.

    As for the conscience, I was not referring to that. We are talking about justice. Different societies have different standards for justice and different norms for carrying out that justice. Yet we all bear a conscience. So that clearly is not the issue. Even Christians disagree about what is exactly "right is right and wrong is wrong." It is not so much instinctive as it is convictive (think I just created a word).

    But as I said, I don't want to hijack this thread. This will be my last response on this issue in this thread.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for this useful post.It is direct,biblical , and accurate:thumbs:
     
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    is this the ole "God HAS to offer it to ALL, or else do it to NONE" in order to be "fair?"
     
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Herald, I do not agree with Augustine's theory of Original Sin. It was based almost solely on Augustine's interpretation of a flawed Latin text. Even scholars who support OS freely admit that Rom 5:12 in the original Greek is not saying Adam's sin was imputed to us. Do a little research and you will find I am telling you the truth. Other than this, OS has almost no support in scripture, and in fact there is much scripture that says God holds men accountable for their OWN sin and does not hold the son accountable for his father's sin. Read Ezekiel chapter 18 where this is repeatedly and clearly stated. Besides this, every man innately knows it is unjust to blame someone and hold them accountable for a sin committed by another person. For this reason alone (but there are MANY others) I consider Calvinism error and unscriptural. Saying this is not a difficulty for you because you simply believe is not a meaningful or valid argument, you could sincerely believe the moon is made of green cheese, doesn't make it so.
     
    #44 Winman, Nov 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2011
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

    Who is it that comes to Christ? Why do they come to Christ? SOMETHING happened to them BEFORE they came to the light. What was it?
     
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Apostle paul used 2 men, first and second Adam, to illustrate the doctrine that ALL men are either spiritual dead in Adam, as we ALL were born as sinful beings, as Adam decided to fall from God and took ALL of us down that path, or spiritually alive again in jesus Christ

    Adam represented dead men before God, Jesus represented those alive agin...

    Clear teaching from the HS...

    We are sinners born estranged from God, and go onto to decide to stay sinning against Him!
    Sinners by birth, which is confirmed by deeds done "in the flesh"
     
  7. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I guess misrepresenting is one of your favorite things.

    1. God is not a liar. All are invited to him. He reject no one that comes.
    2. Man is guilty of sin. What a gross representational.
    3. God is not the author of sin. what a gross lie about Calvinists
    4. God justly punishes men. Man is a sinner, he deserves hell.
     
  8. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Something did happen to them before they came to Christ. It is found in Ephesians 2.

    Earlier in Ephesians 2 we read that unsaved man is dead in his trespasses and sin (2:1). He is a son of disobedience serving the prince of the power of the air (Satan; 2:2). Left to his own devices this man has no hope. But then we read two of the most precious words in the bible, "But God..." Even while this unsaved man was dead and serving Satan, Christ made him alive! Who made him alive? Christ! Christ did so unilaterally. We don't read of the unsaved man choosing Christ; we read of him being made alive by a magnificent benefactor. Not only made alive but seated in the heavenly places in Christ. And lest we think the unsaved man had some part in his marvelous salvation, the Apostle Paul tells us that his salvation was by grace through faith; and not of himself, it is the gift of God.

    So yes, something does happen to a person before they come to Christ.
     
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    The scriptures do not say all men are dead "in Adam". The term "in Adam" is found only ONCE in all of scripture in 1 Cor 15:22. This verse does not say men are dead in Adam, it says all "die" (future tense) in Adam. You have to be alive to die, so this verse actually refutes that we are born dead in sin. Besides this, the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians is clearly dealing with physical death and the future resurrection of our bodies, not spiritual death. So, you and others who use this as a proof text are pulling it out of context and misapplying it to speak of spiritual death.

    That 1 Cor 15:22 is speaking of temporal life (physical death) and not spiritual death is addressed by Barnes:

    Barnes was a Calvinist, but he rightly interpreted 1 Cor 15:22 to be speaking of temporal or physical death only and presents valid arguments why it cannot be speaking of spiritual death as you and many others misrepresent the scriptures.
     
    #49 Winman, Nov 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2011
  10. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Winman, I was going to respond with a wordy retort; but I've decided that your own words make my point better than I ever could.
     
  11. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

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    So, would you call yourself or would you hold to the theology of Pelagianism?

    If not, can you identify the theology you hold to? Semi Pelagianism, Semi Augustinianism?
     
  12. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    I guess misrepresenting is one of your favorite things as well. Let's recap the Calvinist double talk:

    1. All are invited.
    2. He rejects none that come.
    3. He gives some the desire to come and not others.
    4. So, God doesn't reject people, he just doesn't give some people the desire to even come in the first place.

    What a crock.
     
  13. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Again, you saying it's illogical doesn't make it so. I'll explain below. It is a sufficient payment for all. Glad we agree.

    No, that's exactly what you just said. "Whosoever (of the world) that believes will not perish. The atonement will not cover the sins of unbelievers. It was never intended to save the sins of unbelievers. In that very verse alone, it was intended to save whosoever out of the world that believes.
    please stick to the subject

    If I buy 10 billion Snicker bars. Have I bought a sufficient number of Snicker bars for every person in the world to get one? Yes. So it's sufficient for all. Do I have to have any intention to give anyone one of these bars? No, that's separate. Do I believe God will save anyone that comes to him? Yes, but that doesn't change the sufficiency of it at all. Intention doesn't matter to the sufficiency of the payment.
    please stick to the subject at hand. Please address my points and not add in other things.
    Please stick to the subject.

    like this entire post. You can't stay on subject
    well, send me the link and I'll try to answer it.

    what is right and what is wrong. Why on earth would I ask you to answer something from my vantage point. Just answer the question
    Good, so do I!
    please use my terms. I said believers.

    now, as for you number 2, does "Christ's death penalty of sin (atonement), appease God's wrath against sin (propitiation), to defeat the curse of death, to redeem the physical universe and to reconcile sinners to Himself" of unbelievers?
     
  14. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Would say that if I was forced to choose between Barnes and Apostle paul, stick with paul, HINT he was the inspired one!
     
  15. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    I never intentionally misrepresent others. If I have, please let me know. Otherwise, you have falsely accused me.
    Not quite right.

    1. all are invited.
    2. He will reject none that come
    3. None want to come
    4. He gives some the desire to come and not others.
     
  16. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    As I said...a crock. It is clear to all that aren't indoctrinated in Calvinism that this equals "God rejects".
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    The clear implication of Jn 3:21 is that not only had God already wrought within them, these had also been 'doing the truth' prior to coming to Christ.

    How do you explain that?
     
  18. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    God doesn't reject anyone. Please stop lying. People reject God.
     
  19. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    But, according to Calvinism, no person is ever capable of choosing God unless God programs them to chose Him. Once you get past the double talk, God rejects people.

    Again, if you weren't so heavily indoctrinated in the false theology of Calvinism you would see this. You eyes are closed to the truth.
     
  20. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    Sorry, but please address what I believe, not what you think I believe. No person wants to choose God. In your system(unless you are Universalist) all those that die in their unbelief did not want to choose God. Same thing. Those that do come don't come because they were any better, but God changed their heart of stone(Ezekiel 36). This is though his grace as we shouldn't have had a chance in the first place. God was not obligated to save anyone.

    Rejection implies one is coming and is prevented. Calvinism doesn't teach that people are coming and God rejects them.

    If you want a Christlike discussion, I'm happy to have one. If you are going to continue your hateful comments, then I won't.
     
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