The Elect are the Who-so-evers.

So, do you believing "falling from Grace"??

BBob,

 

You believe after being chosen before the foundation of the world, you can reject it? I didn't know that was the belief of the calvinists.

Bro. Dallas, that is not choosing. Why twist words that say he can choose between good and evil, but will never choose good.

Isa 1:16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Isa 1:17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isa 1:18¶Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isa 1:20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].

a 1:21¶How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers

Did the elect fall??

BBob,

 

exchange, or change, twist...whatever would you want to use. They rejected the truth. End of story.

The Greek supports "change" more then exchange as we know it. But no big deal if you wish to stick with exchange.

 

Bob,

No. Where did I say anything close to this?

 

I guess you didn't when you posted "brothers" I guess you meant us. I thought you meant all of them.

If they were dead as some say they are dead, then how did they understand God and then reject Him??

Seems to me they chose not to glorify God, not that they did not have a chance to do so.

BBob,

 

Glad you said "they are the ones who rejected truth", therefore they chose evil over good.

BBob,

 

He did say that, didn't he?

 

No Problem With This...

I know my response is not in line with the current conversatio, and I'm sorry. I'm getting in late, but, I wanted to add my opinion on predestination....which I bel;ieve in, and I believe that the verse is relevant to all who call upon His name. IMHO, In the end, the truth [as to what I believe] is: God does know who those "who-so-ever's" are way before they ever call upon Him to be saved.

Even though it is God's will that none should perish, He knows that the majority of mankind will ultimately reject Him [not call upon His name] because the concept of sin, hell, and salvation is either too simple to be true, or, too bizarre to believe. When I say bizarre, what I mean is: there are massive numbers of people who simply don't believe God will judge and send His creation to hell] For whatever the reason, the majority of mankind just can't {or won't} comprehend God's distaste for sin, His grace, and the gift of eternal life. Thus, those who have been predestined to be saved, are the minority of mankind that will eventually call upon His name. This need to call upon His name to be saved has been [somehow] imprinted in the spirit [or genetic DNA] of the chosen prior to their being conception.

I know my comments will ruffle the feathers of many, but, I truly believe God has predetermined those who will follow Him; those who will fall away; and those who will reject Him.

Just as Jesus chose His Disciples [knowing that one would ultimately fall away/reject Him], God chose His elect [knowing the majority would reject Him and others would fall away]. For those that think predestination negates the need to participate in the great commission, let me add that evangelism is the spiritual tool that clicks that preordained switch from "off" to "on" within the heart and soul of the lost, causing them to "call upon Him" and be saved.

However, the truth is, whether Calvin was wrong or right [about predestination], most of us will still be saved because we called upon His Name to save us. The truth about the theology of Calvin will be answered in heaven. Thus, to argue over predestination is a waste of precious time, because it won't matter in the end. What does matter is our response to spread the Gospel so that sinful people can make a choice to either choose of reject God; and whether they've been predestined [or not]; the blessing [at least for me] is in the fact that for those who respond to the Gospel (and been saved) heaven is but a heartbeat away :saint:.

the truth is [at least for me] is that Jesus proclaimed that the road to heaven is "narrow". It is extremely disheartening to know that the majority of mankind will end up in hell. Now that is truly a waste.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

removed, I misread your post Paul,

 

They do have a choice. But they are blind to the right choice. This is where....the whosoever type of thing comes in.

They are called. They are DEAD in that they will never understand their need for God. Therefore they reject Him.

for God hath shewed it unto them.
Indeed as stated in John 1 .....The Word was made flesh...Christ came as the light of the world. The world rejected Him. They never saw a need to believe Him as LORD. Whosoever may come...but no one comes. Therefore God elects.

 

indeed.

I have never said they did not. Nature man will always reject God.

 

see....

Even webdog agrees.

I hope this means you guys now are Calvinist.

 

If you are blind to the right choice...there is no choice there. They could see the truth, it was presented to them...but THEY REJECTED it, not were blind to it.

How do dead people reject? If the dead cannot understand, the dead cannot reject...dead is dead

Are you implying God elects based on some kind of foreknowledge? Why does God say whosoever may come...knowing that whosoever will not come?

 

Again James; if we were not talking scripture and to say that someone has a choice, but will always choose evil because they are blind, I believe that even the calvinist would say "that is no choice".

Be like saying: You can have what I got in my hand to a blind man, and not give him a chance to find your hand. That would not be a choice at all, but mockery to the blind man. God don't work that way. Men mocked the Lord, but He don't mock men.

Mar 10:34And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

BBob,

 

I can tell you still do not understand.

All choices are limited to what we love the most at that moment. You reject what you do not love the most. Man can only serve one master.

This is something you have never been about to understand. Understand is understand the need. Maybe they do not view themself as a sinner, so they do not understand a need for God. Maybe they do not understand their need NOW, but would rather put it off for another day. In each case the understanding is limited where they reject God. The fact remains, they love their life, or they love sin, or one or more of many other things they love more then God. Man can only serve one master. You chose what you love.

Yes.

You asking me or God? I believe it because God said it.

 

Now you have thrown "love the most" into the mix. At first you said man is blind to the correct choice (truth). You are adding new elements to this.
Maybe this is why I don't understand where you are coming from, as it is quite confusing...

If you believe God elects based on foreknowledge...why do the non calvinists get ridiculed on here for saying that?

God is also not the author of confusion, which that would be. I believe it, too, but the difference lies I believe it without an asterisk, or trying to explain away the plain meaning of it.

 

The call to salvation goes out to all man. All men are bind and will not respond. You are right in one way. That choice though it is there is really not a choice, in that the nature of man will never consider it.

Its the same reason as to why a lion will not eat hay. If a lion was hungry and you placed hay in front of him, he will not eat it. The lion has the power to eat the hay, but lions will not eat hay. So hay is not a real choice even though you yourself view it as a choice. Hay will keep the lion from death if he eats it, but the lion will die and never eat the hay, for it is not part of his nature. Lions eat meat.

Let me ask you. Does "whosoever will" include these people in this verse below...?

If so...then I guess God does. If not, then "whosoever will" is not all of mankind.

 

I see that, and this is what I said before. We then agree.

I don't believe God elects based on foreknowledge

God is not the author of confusion...I agree. Because you or I do not understand, don't mean it is His fault...now does it? If by confusion you mean man knows all of God, please ask a non-believer to tell you about hypostatic union. If he cannot, does this mean God is confusing or does the non-believe not understand?

 

What are you talking about?

Then why did you say yes?

Whoever may come is not confusing...a child can understand it. Because you disagree with the elementary simplicity of it doesn't mean it needs to be more complex

 

Re:The whosoevers are the Elect.

I have always done my very best to stay out of these C/A debates, but I want to throw my quarter in the well, so to speak. Those who ascribe to John Calvin believe that God foreordained(forknowledged) those who would serve Him, and those who wouldn't. I, for one, do not believe He "created" anyone for one destination or the other, but He did know which way they would go...He just didn't "make" them destined for Heaven or the Lake of Fire.

Here is a verse that I want the "Calvnists" to study on VERY CLOSELY!!!

Romans 5

6: For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly

Now, if Jesus died for His "Elect" only, does this make the "non-Elect" Godly. All of us were unGodly until He saved us. He died for ALL, not just SOME, IMO.

Willis