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Featured The Elect, The Sheep, and the Like

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed1689, Nov 19, 2020.

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  1. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Respectfully,
    You are free to use it any way that you like.

    I can use it to describe who God's people are, the "sheep of His pasture" ( Psalms 95:7-8, Psalms 100:3, Isaiah 40:10-11 ), His elect.
    I believe that I have explained my usage of it in post #72 as well as many other threads where the subject of God's people is spoken of.
    If you disagree, that is your prerogative.

    Again,
    I wish you well, sir.
     
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  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    One BECOMES elect by salvation. Right now, Biden is POTUS-elect. If events follow their normal course prescribed by law, he will become POTUS Jan. 20, 2021.

    Ijn the same way, we are citizens-elect of God's kingdom. While that kingdom exists in us, it's not been made physically manifest yet, but it will be when the time comes. And that includes Israelis & gentiles alike.
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Well, you engaged me on this. Im simply responding. The elect is not in view in that passage and must be imposed on it to apply it that way. I certainly believe in election. Just not the errant definition of my reformed brethren. Even still its a misuse of scripture to use it in that passage. It wreaks of an agenda rather than exegesis.
     
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  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Your first sentence is convoluted. Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 suggests the election is before the foundation of the world. The salvation of the elect happens later in time, but the elect are already determined by God.
     
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  5. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    calvinist hooey.

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

    Who does "all" leave out ?
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Sigh, your use of 2 Peter 3:9 shows your ignorance of scripture and proper hermeneutics. Peter is addressing the day of the Lord and judgment. He is not supporting your false narrative at all and he would rebuke you for your poor understanding of God's word.

    Your response shows the hokum of those who teach as you do.
     
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  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The hokum is calvinism.

    Peter is clearly writing to new Christians of his time, & the day of the Lord obviously didn't come then, nor has it yet come.

    You cats simply cannot sustain your "everyone is predestinated & unable to change it" stuff. If it was true, why worship at all ? Why spread the Gospel at all, if it can't change anyone's predestination ? You may tiptoe thru the TULIP to someone more-gullible than I am.

    And I betcha didn't know that even Calvin wasn't a calvinist !
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    wrong...elect were elect before they were saved.
    2 Timothy 1:9
    King James Version

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
     
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The truth of God stands no matter who or who does not understand it.
     
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  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Individual election to salvation is a biblical certainty.
    Corporate election which is generic is a novelty
     
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  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    ...but the grace, which is unmerited favor, was given to us IN JESUS, WHO EXISTED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.

    I instantly agree that God had, & has, predestinated some in service to Him, such as Moses, Jeremiah, & John the Baptist, but that salvation is open to all living people.
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello roby
    is 2 tim 1:9 addressed only to Moses, Jeremiah, and John the baptist or;
    or to
    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling?

    Are all Christians saved and called with a Holy Calling?

    15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world
    to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


    16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
     
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  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello Roby,
    is it only these special people you name here or is it all the called saints?
    rom1:
    5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

    6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

    7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

    1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

    2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
     
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  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Sigh, just read the whole passage and admit you are abusing God's word to claim an unsubstantiated assertion.

    2 Peter 3:1-13
    This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

    If you have ears to hear and eyes to see, you will very clearly recognize that Peter is telling the believers that, "The Lord...is patient with YOU, not wishing that any should perish."

    God's judgment by fire will not come until all the elect have been saved so that none of the elect will perish. This passage rebukes your awful hermeneutics. Are you incapable of seeing what the passage says because your philosophy blinds you from the actual text?
     
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Roby,
    Jesus already began His mediatoral work before the world was by being surety for a multitude of people, as well as the Lamb slain before the world
    Heb 722-25
     
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  16. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is only talking of God's beloved elect
    The reason God makes us born again is because of His great love for us. Meaning He does not have a great love for the others, and some people don't like to hear that truth.

    Job 9:24
    The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. He covers the faces of its judges. If it is not He, who else could it be?
     
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  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Again, who does ALL leave out ?

    God does not create anyone predestinated for hell, with no chance for salvation. If He did, would He then not be perfectly-just?

    Remember, Jesus even gave JUDAS the chance to repent! He made it plain to Judas that He knew of his plan to betray Him by pointing Him out with a kiss to the temple cops who didn't know Him by sight. He even told Judas to go & do what he must do quickly. But Judas had allowed Satan to enter into him.

    Can you name anyone now living that has no chance at all for salvation ?
     
  18. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    And scoffers HAVE come in the form of calvinists, besides many others, including cultists. Calvinists say God created people automatically predestinated for hell, no matter what, while still saying He's perfectly just. Yes, calvinists sell God short !

    If everyone is predestinated, no matter what, why bother to worship or spread the Gospel ? Jesus didn't give the "Great Commission" for just a hobby!
     
  19. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    All and You here are who Peter is calling the beloved and the elect.
     
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Predestination refers only to salvation, other predestined to Hell part sounds like Allah!
     
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