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Featured The Equality of Jesus to The Father

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Apr 20, 2021.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Firstly by “Equality” it is meant, that Jesus Christ and The Father, are “identical” in their Power, Authority, Rank, Status, Importance, Nature. In the Godhead, as Almighty God, neither Person is in any way, “better”, “more important or prominent”, or “greater”, than the other Person. Just because in some cases the Father is mentioned first, does not make Him the more “prominent”, in the Godhead. In 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul says, “the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, is with you all! Amen”. Here Jesus Christ is mentioned first, and the Father is second, and then the Holy Spirit. In Ephesians 4:4-6, we read: “one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all”. The Holy Spirit is first, then Jesus, and then the Father. Thereby showing that each Person in the Holy Trinity is completely EQUAL.

    For those who argue for the Primary status of God the Father in the Godhead, because He is called “The Father”, and therefore “Higher” than Jesus Christ, as “The Son”. 1 Corinthians 1:9 shows this to be wrong. Here we read:

    “God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord”

    Here, in the Greek it says, “δι' ου” (through Whom), where the preposition “δι'”, is used for the “agent”. So the Father is here as “subordinate” to Jesus Christ, Who is the One “Calling” us into fellowship. It does not say “ὑπό ου”, BY Whom, which would be the case, if it was the Father Who did the Calling. As it reads, the Father is acting on behalf of Jesus Christ.

    This would be impossible if Jesus Christ is not Himself YHWH, and completely EQUAL to God the Father!

    Also, in this verse, as in many places in the New Testament, we have “ὁ θεὸς” (The God [the Father]); and “τοῦ υἱοῦ” (The Son). Clearly Two DISTINCT Persons.

    In John Chapter 5 we read of the lame man who was healed by Jesus, on the Sabbath Day. When the Jews challenged the Lord on His actions, He simply replied, “But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”” (verse 17). These words enraged the Jews, as we read in the next verse, “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God”. Jesus here calls The Father, “πατέρα ἴδιον”, His OWN Father, in a very personal and exclusive way, which the Jews rightly understood as Jesus claiming for Himself Absolute Deity. As their response shows, “making Himself equal with God”. The Greek is very interesting, “ἴσον ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν τῷ θεῷ”. Firstly we have the use of the definite article, “τῷ θεῷ”, literally “The God”, not “god”. Then we have the use of the adjective, “ἴσον”, (equal), which is used for “the same in quality, strength, comparable with, equal with no advantage to either side”. Jesus does not rebuke these Jews for saying what they did, which He would have done, if they were incorrect. It is very clear that Jesus Christ IS EQUAL with the Father.

    In the next passage from Philippians 2, we read of Jesus Christ from all eternity, and into His Incarnation.

    “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (5-8)

    The words “though He was”, is in the Greek, “ὑπάρχων”, which means “to be already in existence”, then simply “being, existing”, as the present participle. In the “form of God”, is being in the “very nature”, as the Greek “μορφη”, here means. At the time of the KJV translation in 1611, this Greek word was already used in English as , “The essential determinant principle of a thing”. Which is as the NIV Bible has it, “in very nature”. “Equality” in this passage in Philippians, is much like that in John. Here it is the Greek, “ισα”, which is the neuter plural, meaning, “on equal terms, without advantage to either side”

    It was this “equality” with the Father, that He “emptied Himself”, when He took on the “very nature (μορφη)” of a “Servant”, and became the God-Man.

    In John 17:5, Jesus says:

    “And now Glorify Me Thou, Father, with Thyself, with the Glory which I had before the world was, with Thee” (literal)

    In this verse Jesus is saying to the Father, that, from all eternity, He “had”, “ειχον”, in the imperfect, of continued possession, the same GLORY as that which God the Father has as His possession! Jesus says, “παρα σεαυτω” (with Thyself) “παρα σοι”, where the use of the preposition “παρα”, which means, “besides, near, in the company of”, thereby showing that The Father and Jesus Christ are DISTINCT Persons. This Glory which Jesus enjoyed with The Father from all eternity, is what He “gave up”, during His Incarnation. In Luke 24:26, Jesus says, “Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into His glory?””.

    In Isaiah 42:8 it says, “I am the LORD, that is My name; And My Glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images”

    YHWH says that He would not give His own Glory (כָּבוֹד, Honor, Glory) to any other. Yet, Jesus Christ tells YHWH the Father, that He EQUALLY possessed His GLORY from all eternity! IF, as some suppose that Jesus Christ is a mere created being, or eternally “subordinate” to the Father in the Godhead, then what we read here in the Holy Bible, cannot be correct!

    Listen to Jesus own words in John 5:23

    “that all may Honor the Son just as they Honor the Father. He who does not Honor the Son does not Honor the Father who sent Him”

    Here Jesus, as the God-Man, during His Incarnation on earth, when he was “subordinate” to the Father, Who He Himself said, “is Greater than I” (John 14:28), says very clearly, that ALL humans “Honor the Son”, “just as”, (καθὼς) “according as”, “they Honor the Father”. And, they who do not “Honor” Jesus Christ, do not either “Honor” the Father, Who sent Him. Some argue, that because Jesus Christ was “sent” by the Father, He is therefore not “equal” to the Father. This verse shows this thinking to be very much wrong! To demand EQUAL HONOR to God the Father, is only possible if Jesus Christ Himself IS YHWH, exactly as the Father is YHWH. No created being, or subordinate Person, can ever make such a statement, without it being the highest form of blasphemy! Also in this verse, we have Jesus was being “sent” by The Father (τὸν πατέρα), showing their “distinction” as Persons, which some deny.
     
  2. Paul from Antioch

    Paul from Antioch Active Member

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    Via Face Book, I was challenged by someone who only claimed that Jesus Christ was God ONLY while He was here on earth & demanded I supply NT evidence for my "heresy." Naturally this person didn't think that either John's Gospel or his letters were sufficient "PROOF," claiming these were merely quotations from "MY favorite version." This person would never reveal what HIS "favorite version" was, nor from what school he received his training, My requests for a catalog from whatever school/college he received his education were never answered, but I do have my suspicions as to which one(s) it may have been. Since my requests for more info went unanswered, I've not heard form this person. I merely warned him of the dangers of his traveling down his "favorite" path will led him (too late) to find out that it is a DEAD END. Pray for this person & the many others who are on that Road to Destruction.
     
  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    How do you explain these verses that clearly say differently? Are they contradictions?


    Even Christ stated" Joh_13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

    Joh_14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    MB
     
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  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    sure, the verses that you refer to are post Incarnation, for which time, while Jesus was on earth, was "subordinate" to the Father. I have already shown in the OP, from John 5:23, where Jesus says that He must be "Honored" JUST AS the Father is. And those who do not so Honor Him, do not Honor the Father. This tells me that in their Essential Deity (Godhead), the Father and Jesus are 100% equal. Note also that Jesus mentions Himself first, and then the Father.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was speaking in that time in His temp subordination spot, what He agreed to be while incarnated, but he right now is in back of the full glory had with the father from eternity past!
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How could Jesus state things like even he did not know the time of his second coming UNLESS was due to Him accept limitations while incarnated here as the God man!
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Paul says in 1 Timothy 3:16, "And without controversy great is the MYSTERY of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory"

    Not only is the God of the Bible a Mystery, in every sense of the word. But, so is the Lord Jesus Christ, Eternally YHWH, but for our sakes took upon Himself the very nature of humans, sin excepted. Thereafter the God-Man, in One Person, Jesus Chirst. Some things that Jesus said and did, are true to His Human Nature, like He "grew in wisdom". He was tired, and hungry and had to eat food. Said that He did not "know" the time of His Second Coming. Yet, on the other hand, as Almighty God, He forgave sins, accepted Worship, claimed equality with the Father, walked on water, raised the dead, healed the sick. knew what was in man. How exactly did His Two Natures "Communicate", is a great Mystery indeed. How could Almighty God enter the womb of a woman, and be born as a human child? It would drive us mad to try to work this out, but to reject any of this, endangers our souls!
     
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    God and Jesus are one. There can't be difference in "one" because there is not another to be compared to.. Even in seeming to be two different deities Jesus was still God and God is one
    How does one God submit to Him Self.. Very mysterious indeed.
    MB
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    God the Father and Jesus Christ are not the same Person, which is clear from verses like John 1:1, where "the Word" is said to be "in the presence of God the Father", which shows that they are "distinct". Yet it goes on to say that "the Word was God". Some argue that this means that Jesus Christ and the Father are One Person. For this to be true, John would have had to have written, "και ο λογος ην εν τον θεον"; but he wrote "και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον". Others argue that Jesus is not "God", but "a god", because there is not definite article in the Greek, "και ο θεος ην ο λογος" (John wrote, "και θεος ην ο λογος"). Had John used the Greek article in this place, he would have made "the Word" and "The God", convertable, so that Jesus Christ IS all of God, and there is no Father and Holy Spirit. Further, the use of "προς", becomes redundant.

    God the Son in His "human nature", can indeed "submit" to God the Father, which is purely functional, for the purpose of the Incarnation and Jesus' Death.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    His limitations while in the Incarnation would explain some of those sayings some bring out to try to show Him being less then God!
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    There are 3 persons in the Godhead, not One person flipping roles back and forth!
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Less than God NO! subordinate in His Person as the God-Man. Yes
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I'm no Greek expert so it does no good what so ever to quote it to me. Your interpretation of it could be just wrong as it could be right. IOW's it does not impress me.nor does it make you any more right or wrong. Unless your trying to prove the KJV is completely wrong
    MB
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I am not interested in impressing anyone but tell it to you the way that it is. You are free to check things out for yourself and correct me where you think I am wrong
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Interesting that JW say that absence of the article before Logos means that Jesus is not God, for there are several passages where in the Greek text the Father has no article before Theos, does that mean Father not fully God either?

    John wrote as he did to show to us that Jesus is God, but that he is not the same person as the Father!
     
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Are you claiming to believe in three gods? I hope to just misunderstand what you are trying say.
    MB
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So you do not know what the Greek text says or means, and yet you keep stating stuff that seems to imply that Jesus is not fully God?
     
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, One God in 3 persons, do you affirm that?
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    John 8.58 is a very good example. Jesus is talking to the Jews about the Father Who is the subject of the verse. Jesus then refers to the Father as their God which in the Greek is predicate and has no definite article. No one would try to render this as "god"
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The JW would have to though, if was consistent with their own logic!
     
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