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Featured The Eternal Relational Subordination Of God the Son

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SATS PROF, Dec 1, 2019 at 9:11 AM.

  1. SATS PROF

    SATS PROF Member
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    Do you think that Bible teaches it? Why/why not?
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Only on a temp basis, when God the Son became human and lived among us!
     
  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I am assuming your question is whether the Son of God is in eternal submission to the Father. The answer to that question is "yes". The question of the Son's submission is also directly tied to another doctrine: the eternal generation of the Son. The second person of the Trinity has always been the Son of God. Here are some passages to consider:
    John 1:1-3, 8:38, 8:42, 10:30, 14:9-11; Hebrews 1:2; 1 John 1:1; Revelation 1:8.
     
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    As God the subordination does not exist, John 4:24. As Persons who are equally the One and the same God, there is the subordination of the Persons. Ephesians 3:9: John 1:1-3. Mark 13:32; Acts of the Apostles 1:7. John 13:16; John 17:3; John 1:9-10; Hebrews 1:2-3. John 16:7-11; John 16:13. And subordination of Persons also in some other ways, yet as God never suborenation. Now the Son of God who has two natures, never ceased being God, in now having a human nature which is not God, 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 1:3. Only how the Son was with God changed, John 1:2; John 1:14.

    In short:

    The subordination has to do with Personhood, never deity in being the One LORD God, Deuteronomy 6:4; Proverbs 21:30.
     
    #4 37818, Dec 1, 2019 at 7:39 PM
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 8:09 PM
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No, permanent, Hebrews 13:8, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Father, Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the One *LORD God without beginning or end.


    *YHWH​
     
  8. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    1 John 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--

    Hebrews 1:1-2 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

    The Son of God is eternally existent. This is a central teaching of Christianity. The Triune God has always existed; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all eternally existent in their respective persons. The Son created all there is (Hebrews 1:2), which means he existed before His incarnation.

    If you are going to call anyone out for false teaching perhaps you should look in the mirror.
     
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  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.


    Please pay attention, the false teaching is not Biblical. The concept of eternal generation is the false teaching.

    Agreed.

     
    #9 37818, Dec 1, 2019 at 9:23 PM
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 9:28 PM
  10. Reformed

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    Do you even know what the eternal generation of the Son is? At its basic level, it means that the Son of God has always been and always will be the Son of God. He was the Son of God before the physical universe was created. He will be the Son of God for eternity in the eternal state. It also deals with the relationship between the Father and the Son. Matt Slick at CARM does a good of explaining this. I quote:

    The eternal generation of the Son, also known as the eternal begetting of the Son, is the teaching that the Son is eternally begotten by the necessary will of the Father, but that the Son is not created or caused, and that neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit are dependent upon the Father or any other member of the Godhead for existence. The eternal generation of the Son is a statement on the relationship within the Trinity between the Father and the Son before the incarnation. Therefore, the term is not in reference to causation but to nature and relationship. The eternal generation of the Son must be understood to mean that the Father did not bring the Son into existence, which would deny the full immutability and deity of the Son.

    The term "eternal generation of the Son" can be misunderstood to suggest that there is a qualitative difference between the Father and the Son, and that somehow, someway, the Son came into existence. This is not what the term means.

    • "The eternal generation of the Son is commonly defined to be an eternal personal act of the Father, wherein by necessity of nature, not by choice of will, he generates the person (not the essence) of the Son, by communicating to him the whole indivisible substance of the Godhead, without division, alienation, or change, so that the Son is the express image of his Father’s person, and eternally continues, not from the Father, but in the Father, and the Father in the Son."1
    • In order to guard their doctrine of derivation and eternal generation from all gross anthropomorphic conceptions they carefully maintained that it was—(1) αχρονοςtimeless, eternal; (2)ασωματωςnot bodily, spiritual; (3)αορατοςinvisible; (4)αχωριστωςnot a local transference, a communication not without but within the Godhead ; (5)απαθωςwithout passion or change; (6)παντελως ακαταληπτος, altogether incomprehensible."2
    • "...the personal subsistence of the Son is derivative, though eternal, and constitutes His nature the same with the Father’s?"3
    • "The Word was Himself the cause of all created things; Himself increate; His eternal generation implied in the eternity of His existence and His distinct personality."4
    Following are some of the verses used in discussion of the eternal generation issue.

    • John 1:1, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
    • John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
    • John 5:26, "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself."
    • John 6:57-58, "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me. 58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate, and died, he who eats this bread shall live forever."
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
    • Hodge, A. A. Outlines of Theology. Simpsonville, SC: Christian Classics Foundation, 1998. p. 183
    • 2.ibid., p. 183
    • 3.Dabney, Robert L. Systematic Theology. electronic ed. based on the Banner of Truth 1985 ed. Simpsonville SC: Christian Classics Foundation, 1996.
    • 4.Roberts, Alexander, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds. The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Novatian, Appendix. Vol. 5. Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1886.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    None of those verses cited teach the nonsense of the unbiblical teaching of "eternal generation." The Son of God being eternal does not imply eternal generation in any Biblical way. He is, as the Son of God, the sole cause of all caused things being the same LORD God with His Father, John 1:3; Ephesians 3:9.
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense, "begetting" is a cause, eternally would mean never begotten, not to be a cause.

    Eternally begotten = never begotten to be begotten. It is utter nonsense.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus as to His Deity Eternal, but His humanity was nborn when conceived in Mary by Holy Spirit!
     
  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Listen, proof has been presented and you rejected it. I stand by what I have said. End of story.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    And is now permanent, Hebrews 13:8.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Fine. The word of God nowhere teaches "eternally begotten." I accept the interpretation of an "eternal Sonship" to be Biblical. I hold that the Trinity explanation, the Eather, Son of God and Holy Spirit were always Eather, Son and Holy Spirit being the LORD God. YHWH.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but before the Incarnation, was no Jesus, just God the Son!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Each One of them is Yahweh....
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    He was both God and with God. In His incarnation, how He was with God changed, John 1:14. In His bodily resurrection He became the first immortal human and the beginning of the new heaven and Earth, Colossians 1:18; Revelation 3:14; John 1:3. 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, not being parts, but are Yahweh, Deuteronomy 6:4.
     
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