The Fall of Man

Speaking of Rom 9:22 Bob said But what is "Worse" (for Calvinism) is that in 9:22 God shows that it is the mercy kindness compassion and long suffering of God includes "Vessels of WRATH prepared for destruction"!! -- The VERY Point Calvinism had so hoped to avoid!!

REad the text Carefully then. The Long suffering and patience of God is there and is also posted here --

In this case the "YOU" that is mentioned ARE among those that USED to be LOST but have been BENEFITED by the DELAY already so far. The texts points to the fact that GOD HIMSELF anticipates that MORE of the LOST to BENEFIT by MORE delay since that is the REASON HE GIVES for the DELAY. (Or more SEAMING delay).

God's WILL for mankind is abundantly clear here - and those who reject this truth about God must find a way to "limit the atonement" AND "limit this statement on His will".

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God expends EFFORT to SAVE them - HE SENDS them messages of warning and salvation. At GREAT cost and sacrifice.

Lament over Jerusalem

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God's PURPOSE FOR THEM is salvation – but those who are ultimately lost reject God’s Purpose for THEM .

Even so - God shows Himself as WORKING for their salvation AND YET they turn.

 

The weeping, the trying every option (as we see in Matt 23) the trying both the strict method of John the baptizer and the less rigid style of Jesus in Luke 7 ALL for those "Do rejected God's purpose for them"

And you call this "no mercy, no long suffering, no patience, no outreach"?????

Such a blind defense of Calvinism!! I am impressed!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

What's included in "the deep things"?

 

Hello Bob. Your post posted 07 June, 2005 01:11. Page 6.

The kind of "sovereignty" that does ALLOW free Will is not Sovereign old chap. Sovereign has that meaning.
Why don't you learn what Calvin said then you can use that in your conversations instead of what I believe Calvin said.

Of course my beliefs shift over time I am a man. As I said check out Calvin and use Calvin's statements for the best view of Calvinism if you want he don't change he is dead.

Calvinists have no Pope. I for one use the term Calvinist as a label as a convenience for others not as something to be hamstrung with.

I can see your problem though. You inundate because you think that your many writings win the day for you but they lose it for you. Maybe if you used a point at a time instead of the shotgun approach you would see when you score a point, as you have done, and so will everyone else. How can anyone get a word in edgeways?

What's this mean? One minute you are talking to me the next your saying "johnp says this or that" as if you are addressing the audience. Why?

john.

 

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Are you actually ADMITTING to the "shell game" they play with Calvinism and arguing that I should NOT use your statements as REAL unchanging Calvinism with DETAILS observable by all and NOT shifting as the sands???
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Calvinists here have already admitted that their brand of Calvinism is not exactly what John Calvin taught - since he freely admitted that Christ died for ALL - how could they go along with him??

You see "the endless shell game" of Calvinism has many twists and turns!!

But my point to YOU remains. If you were debating another Arminian I would argue that YOUR position is "against them" and "your views" are opposed to them. I would NEVER argue that MY positions are those that are "Against them"!!!

The fact that you feel led to do that indicates that you TOO see the "shell game of calvinism" in trying not to get pinned down to one actual explicit and consistent view on Calvinism!

How instructive.

In Christ,

Bob

 

He could of sent us all to Hell and He would be just! Praise Him that by His mercy that He chose to save! How awesome is He !

 

Hello Bob.

No and I should imagine it's a very dull man that just accepts without question but there might be some who believe every word Calvin said with thoughtfulness. It is the Lord's doing, making us to be different isn't it?
We have a trading standards law in the UK. Is this what you are complaining about, the forum is entitled Calvinism/Arminian and you think the users should be Calvin clones?
If that is right then you are not an Arminian either are you?

What is it then? Is it that you think you have made a piercing strike only to find out that the other does not believe as he should at this or that point? I used to have to tell the J.w's what they believed occasionally! HaHa! Funny old world ain't it?

Did Calvin ever change his mind? He was a flipping clever man but he was just a man for all that.
When I speak to you I don't try to pin you to Arminian orthodoxy and I'm sure as Hell not going to pick fault with you because you don't match an idealised standard of it that I have in my mind not that I pollute my mind with much of it . Men have a place in the teaching but it is not the most important place. We are all taught by God and He tells us to listen to Him and be lead by Him and if I am wrong at some point that's His fault and the responsibilty of that fault would have been placed on Jesus instead of me. How's that? Ok? Why don't He still blame me then? That's Calvinism as I know it. It's a hard teaching but rational, logical and scriptural. The idea of God wringing His hands in grief because His enemies are going to be butchered by Himself when He gets hold of them is a bit odd to say the least. HaHa! If He does that to those He loves He's worse than I ever imagined and I find that I you have caused me to be shifted to a moderate faith instead of some nutter extremist. Come on man how can you believe He cares for those He is going to torture forever? Have you done away with the idea of Hell? Annihilation? Wringing His hands as He wrings their necks don't scan man?

since he freely admitted that Christ died for ALL - how could they go along with him?? He is not a Pope.
JN 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.
JN 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me
JN 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Limited atonement if I'm not mistaken. Jesus said that. Choice being expressed. You are not my sheep.

I can promise that my belief stays put until I say otherwise. I do change my mind if I am convinced and I would not hide a change. If I say a thing in one place and contradict that some place else pull me up on it. I'm sure you would. We all make mistakes and others should point out error it's good for us but you can't expect me to carry the banner of Calvinism and if I did no one would follow me because we are not led by men but God and to be honest I have not read much of Calvin's work to be any authority but others of like minds I have. Lloydd Jones, Owen, JC Ryle and Berkof to name a few.
I have not read much of Calvin's work to be any authority but I got the gist of it and flew.
I was an Arminian for a week until an elder from a local Church came calling. I told him that I didn't join groups because I would believe something different next week. He told me that I was loved with an everlasting love and that I had cracked it. Home and dry is a good expression. I was shown passages from scripture that made promises to me from Him upstairs and He was saying things like He would never leave me or forsake me and I swallowed it hook, line and sinker. It was music to my ears and I fell for it. Head over heels. My Father, my Brother, my Lord High Protector will let no harm come to me I cost Him dear. A pearl of great price me mate. Imagine! The Lord God Almighty died in my place! Why? To display His glory.
I just wrote below on another forum:
I think you will find that the suffering that was taken by Jesus was on behalf of those that are saved not on those lost. If their suffering was taken by Jesus then they would not have to suffer as well, that would be double jeopardy, but some go to Hell with their sins intact and they suffer for it. This is limited atonement.
Whatcha think? Good 'a'? Since you believe that He wrings His hands as He wrings peoples necks then I'm not so sure you do not think Him capable of double jeopardy as well. What?

Your turn.

john.

 

Your not John PIPER are your? ha ha ha !!!!

What a great God we have ... that chose us...even though we deserve hell !....

 

"the details" -- As I pointed out in your discussion with other Arminians it is YOUR Calvinist views that DIFFER and are "against" their Arminian view. To quote MY ARMINIAN views in your posts with them is NOT "AGAINST" Arminians.

But you argue that YOUR CALVINIST VIEWS are "AGAINST Calvinists" and I should not quote them as ACTUALLY representing some form of legitimate CALVINISM!! (Which of course - is the SHELL GAME of Calvinism).

And in your previous post you also admit that even CALVIN can not be quoted as "Calvinism".

So "The SHELL GAME" of Calvinists is "exposed" to the light of day my friend.

In that respect you agree with your brethren.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is one of the points highlighted in the Calvinist Future Scenario (CFS).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Calvinism doesn't avoid this. It affirms it. In fact, double predestinationists point out that these vessels were prepared fro destruction. It is a phrase that is difficult to get around. What you failed to do (as usual) was actually study in context. The very next verse tells us why he did this: 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, You see ... selective quoting often gets you in trouble. What we see in this passage is two groups of individuals: those prepared for destruction and those prepared for glory. God tolerates the first by not killing them immediately so that he can save the second.

This is quite clearly a very calvinistic verse that refutes at once the notion that all men have the same chance (since some were prepared for destruction) and the notion that the elect don't need to be saved (since the time frame shows that they do).

Thanks, Bob, for helping to refute yourself.

 

Hello Bob.

It would be if I started to correct an Arminian because they do not agree with what you say is Arminianism wouldn't it? Yes? Yes.

I don't think I said my CALVINIST VIEWS are "AGAINST Calvinists but we are bound to clash at times aren't we we are people. If they misunderstand that's because God is withdrawing His word from the world so that those He is against will have nothing from Him not even a threat!
If my view as a Calvinist, and Calvinist I think I am, insists that the baptising of children just makes them grumpy and has no other benefit do I become a non-Calvinist when I say this? If I believe that God is Sovereign and they don't it ain't nothing to do with me but it is all of God. That's my Calvinism even if Calvin does not believe it. Our name is a misnomer and does not express a truth. We are sola scripture not sola Calvin!
I don't believe Jesus would die for a person who will go to Hell. That is where this belief originated. If Calvin believed as you say then I say he was wrong but I continue to bear his name because I am not ashamed of him and it is a label for others to come to a quick decision about where I stand. That's all.

Calvinists have no Pope. What that?
Or As I said check out Calvin and use Calvin's statements for the best view of Calvinism if you want he don't change he is dead.
Which indicates to me that if you want to quote Calvinism ask him. I'm sure none of the Calvinists will be hurt by you quoting Calvin at them and they will be better disposed towards you and me if you left my name out of it. HaHa!
You seek what you cannot find and want a thing that you cannot have. Authoritarians want everything in black and white but we are dealing with people and people change and err. Get used to fudge it is sweet.

Pin people done to their beliefs with their words. It just shows that you have not worked out strategies to deal with it.

I'd rather their company than any Pelagian they cannot be selfrighteous. semi-Pelagians must be. Is it a righteous act to accept Christ or is it not a righteous act? To accept Christ would mean that you have turned from rejection to acceptation so it is an act and that act is called repentance and repentance is righteous so you are selfrighteous.

I'd like to get back to Larry's point. Would you be willing to go through it again a little less heavy? You don't need all the proofs at one time.

What is? Me being not John Piper or What a great God we have?

john.

 

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To quote MY ARMINIAN views in your posts with them is NOT "AGAINST" Arminians
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If Arminianism was the slippery snake shifting thing that Calvinism is - then you might have a point. However Arminianism is simple "God so loved the World...yes REALLY". So I don't see the problem quoting ME to another Arminian. ON the salient points - the key arguments about sovereignty and free will and God offering salvation to ALL etc - we are going to agree because it is all pretty obvious.

But if they say "HEY THAT IS NOT ARMINIANISM" when you quote my affirmations of the Arminian position - well THEN we have a slippery, shifting, changing "Shell game" going on -- don't we!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob notes the Calvinist "shell game" that tries to continually change the definition for Calvinism so that what JohnP says about Calvinism can be condemned as "Arminian hate speech" by other Calvinists, Then Bob comments that JohnP seems to be defending and "enabling" that shell-game practice by some of his responses about how HIS Calvinism should not be CALLED calvinism to other Calvinists for that would be "AGAINST THEM"

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In that respect you agree with your brethren. (You endorse the SHell Gaming)
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Just so we are clear!

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is easy.

Calvinism argues that God DOES have mercy on the ELECT and DOES NOT have Mercy on the non-elect. Calvinism argues that it is GOD who decides when to have MERCY and when not to - so that it is not man but GOD who sovereignly decides when it is MERCY and when it is NO MERCY!!

(No mercy on the precious child of the Calvinist Parent who runs to God and says "Couldn't you have DONE SOMETHING for my precious daughter"?? To which God gives the answer that Calvinism so longs to hear "Well of course I COULD IF I had CARED to - I simply HAD NO MERCY on the one that you love so much. Why not join me and be HAPPY?"

How "instructive".

But in Romans 9 the answer is NEVER "God does NOT have mercy on the MANY of Matt 7" as Calvinism so HOPED to discover.

INSTEAD we find God WORKING FOR and HAVING MERCY on the ALL since "HE IS NOT WILLING FOR ANY to PERISH" and Rom 9 points out that EVEN the case of the "vessels of WRATH" God is LONGSUFFERING and PATIENT to the point of "BEGGING THEM on behalf of Christ BE RECONCILED to GOD" (2Cor 5) and as Paul says to the Romans in 11 his efforts for the lost are many and varied hoping to "MOVE SOME OF THEM" --

The work and ministry and mercy and longsuffering of God TOWRARD those whom He KNOWS to be lost is amazing!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

There are no salient points but one point there is. It is God or is it man that is Sovereign. That's the only point being discussed. Did Adam jump or was he pushed? Any contention that the fall did not cause total inability in man is rejected by all who are not selfrighteous enough to think they can please God or even approach Him as an unforgiven sinner.

You might type before thinking I am sure. I have said, "That's my Calvinism even if Calvin does not believe it. Our name is a misnomer and does not express a truth. We are sola scripture not sola Calvin!" Be wary about misrepresenting the truth. We are mis-named as I said why have you ignored this statement?

That's right. As I said, "Is it a righteous act to accept Christ or is it not a righteous act? To accept Christ would mean that you have turned from rejection to acceptation so it is an act and that act is called repentance and repentance is righteous so you are selfrighteous." Answer the point please. Just so we are clear.

Scripture argues that God DOES have mercy on the ELECT and DOES NOT have Mercy on the non-elect. Scripture argues that it is GOD who decides when to have MERCY and when not to - so that it is not man but GOD who sovereignly decides when it is MERCY and when it is NO MERCY!!

I have replaced Calvin with scripture and agree that that is my Calvinism. I'll tell you why I believe it is GOD who Sovereignly decides when it is MERCY and when it is NO MERCY!!, "EX 33:19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
It is because God says it.

Very. You let yourself down by caricature on a very serious topic. Saint's feelings could be hurt by such nonsense.
I told you, " EZE 37:24 " `My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.

Our children and their children are elect. That is Calvinism. So you play the game as well 'a'? Neat.

But there were some exceptions to this and we have the testimony of one father's reaction when he heard the news that his sons and all his descendant's after him were to be sent to Hell, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." 1 Sam 3:14-18. And that setence was pronounced against them before they died and possibly before some were yet born. Where is this free will gone?

You're with the many by the way. Free will is the gate all men want to enter. Man sovereign in his rebellion he thinks. A weeping and a wringing of hands as He wrings their necks has not received an answer I see. Sounds psycho to me. Why does He wring out tears as He wrings out their lives forever? Sounds psycho to me.
The Sovereignty of God is about as narrow as I can fathom so thanks I don't like crowds anyway.

And from that I'm supposed to become wiser am I? Clapped out arguments? And you know they are but your hope is catching the unwary that's all. You know our reponses and you blank them and spout your wares like any good seller of things in the hope of making others twice as bad as you are. Just so you know where you stand with me.

PS 2:3 "Let us break their chains," they say,
"and throw off their fetters."

PS 2:4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.

My God is Sovereign just so you know where you stand with Him. What you say originated in Him as did the serpents words.

Now I know it's you man not me! Amazing is more like shocking. Mercy is no mercy when it is not applied. I ask you again have you done away with Hell?
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

But He isn't the Saviour of the world is He? He has not saved the world has He? Only 'some'.

john.

 

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

God says "He is" -- you say "He is not" hmmm who should we believe... let me see... no wait don't tell me...let me guess...

God IS the savior of the WORLD as HE says because He REALLY does "So LOVE the WORLD..yes really" and He really IS the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD -- REALLY"

What a great Arminian text!! The Savior of the world DRAWS ALL and convicts ALL so that ALL may choose to "HEAR and OPEN the DOOR"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

PS 2:4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.

Don't you think it would be helpful to actually have a Bible text saying that the Devil's word "originates with God" before saying it repeatedly??

In Christ,

Bob

 

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Bob notes the Calvinist "shell game" that tries to continually change the definition for Calvinism so that what JohnP says about Calvinism can be condemned as "Arminian hate speech" by other Calvinists, Then Bob comments that JohnP seems to be defending and "enabling" that shell-game practice by some of his responses about how HIS Calvinism should not be CALLED calvinism to other Calvinists for that would be "AGAINST THEM"
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Hey John - wouldn't it be super if what you said there was actually true??!! I mean how great it would be if in fact you HAD NOT already called God a despot (which the Bible never does) said God was the author of sin (which the Bible never does) claimed that God is the originator of Satan's Words (which the Bible never does)!!!

But INSTEAD of that mythical scenario where JohnP says NOTHING but SCRIPTURE - I ACTUALLY have a bunch of PURE JohnP quotes to hang out there with each one of my posts about Calvinism and what it is teaching when it says "Sovereign"!!

How wonderful that JohnP will be so well represented EVEN by Arminian posts!!

Fantastic I say -

We have long been waiting for you my brother! Welcome welcome welcome!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Calvinst Shell Game number 7321

WONDERFUL flip flop!!

So now when Spurgeon, Sproll and Calvin all AGREE that there is NO attribute about the elect that would tell you they ARE elect we can so "NO NO" in fact all we need to know is WHO their earthly parents and grandparents are because LITERAL sons-of-the-flesh as determined by DNA and genetics determines WHO is elect!!

What a great flip-flop on your part John!

I salute you!!

This is a perfect illustration of the many twists and turns of Calvinism!!

Did I mention my friend that - you are the greatest!! So good to have each and every one of these golden quotes from you!

In Christ,

Bob