The "FIRST resurrection" - THE Focus of the NT saints?

Jesus said "you will not see me again until you say - blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". As you point out in Rev 1:7 there is some indication of something "special" that God will do just prior to the second coming for those Jewish leaders who lived at the time of Christ and who rejected Him.

But this special event for that small group of people is not the "Focus of the NT saints" -- rather the focus according to Peter, Paul, John etc is the "Return of Christ" the "Appearing of Christ" and the associated resurrection of the "dead in Christ".

in Christ,

Bob

 

This has nothing to do with the resurrection -- it is the response to your question about "many called few chosen".

in Christ,

Bob

 

in 1Thess 4 Paul is speaking to the saints of his day about the loss of loved once in his day. He says THESE are going to be raised at the appearing of Christ "the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST".

Your post above appears to admit that these are the same as those in Rev 20:4 -- once you do that my point is perfectly made!

the dilemma is all resolved.

Please show in the 1Thess 4 text that Paul says something like "SOME of the DEAD in Christ will be raised at the last trump -- when Christ brings with Him those who have fallen asleep... the REST of the dead in Christ will be raised at another time... Hopefully some of those that you know will be raised FIRST and preceed the LIVING to heaven"..

If such language - evidence support can be found in 1Thess 4 you have made your case.


If not - my point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Not "all the dead" just those "over whom the second death has no power"

As Paul points out in 1Thess 4 it is just the "Dead in Christ"

As John points out in Rev 20:4-5 this is just the saints persecuted and redeemed -- as Daniel 7 points out -- it is the persecuted saints.

Yes because there is no other way into heaven.

Christ alone

"The ONE Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9

The context is those who died 2000 years ago showing that ALL the saints -- even those that died 2000 years ago are included.

That said nothing about a resurrection and nothing about making the saints in the first general resurrection serve the wicked raised in the "general" 2nd resurrection.

 

Revelation 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

The sequence is clear. In Rev 19 you have the 2nd coming – literal – visible and world wide. The saints are taken at that event (as we saw in 1Thess 4) and the “rest are killed by the sword that came from His mouth” Rev 19.

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls[/b] of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and [b]they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

And they lived (kai ezhsan).
First aorist active indicative of zaw. If the ingressive aorist, it means "came to life" or "lived again" as in 2:8 and so as to verse 20:5.
http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020&verse=004


John S. C. Abbott and Jacob Abbott
http://www.studylight.org/com/ain/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020
Rev 20 Verse 4
Beheaded for the witness of Jesus; for the witness which they bore. And they lived; were restored to life. This language has been commonly understood to mean that the martyrs thus raised were to appear upon the earth again; but the place which was to be the scene of their new existence, does not seem to be indicated.

John Gill
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020&verse=004
Rev 20:4
their souls lived in their bodies, their bodies being raised again, and reunited to their souls, their whole persons lived; or the souls of them that were beheaded lived; that is, their bodies lived again, the soul being sometimes put for the body, (Psalms 16:10) and this is called the first resurrection in the next verse:

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020
Rev 20:4
But "souls" expresses their disembodied state (compare Re 6:9) as John saw them at first; "and they lived" implies their coming to life in the body again, so as to be visible, as the phrase, Re 20:5, "this is the first resurrection," proves; for as surely as "the rest of the dead lived not (again) until," &c., refers to the bodily general resurrection, so must the first resurrection refer to the body. This also accords with 1Co 15:23, "They that are Christ's at His coming." Compare Ps 49:11-15. From Re 6:9,

Matthew Henry
Rev 20:4
Verses 4-6 Here is an account of the reign of the saints, for the same space of time as Satan is bound. Those who suffer with Christ, shall reign with him in his spiritual and heavenly kingdom, in conformity to him in his wisdom, righteousness, and holiness: this is called the first resurrection, with which none but those who serve Christ, and suffer for him, shall be favoured. The happiness of these servants of God is declared. None can be blessed but those that are holy; and all that are holy shall be blessed. We know something thing of what the first death is, and it is very awful; but we know not what this second death is. It must be much more dreadful; it is the death of the soul, eternal separation from God. May we never know what it is: those who have been made partakers of a spiritual resurrection, are saved from the power of the second death. We may expect that a thousand years will follow the destruction of the antichristian, idolatrous, persecuting powers

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.[/quote]

 

Question – WHO are the saints of Rev 20:1-5 who participate in the general resurrection of the saints?

1Thess 4: - the Dead in Christ rise FIRST
Rev 20:4-5 The “Holy And Blessed” raised in the “FIRST resurrection” over these 2nd death has NO p;ower.
1Peter 1:6-13 – this resurrection is THE focus of the entire NT church

#1. The souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony.
#2. those who of those who died for Word of God
#3. AND Those who had not worship the beast or his image
#4. AND Those who had not received the mark of the beast

This “persecuted saints” image the view of ALL saints since the fall of Adam?

Gen 3 – “I will put war and hatred between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake”
Heb 11:4-40 – All the saints in all ages – persecuted and died without receiving the promise
Rev 6:9-11 Souls under the altar and their persecuted brethren on earth – dying
1 Peter 4; 12-14 – After you have endured persecution – then heaven.
Matt 24 – you will be persecuted – he who endures to the end – saved.
Dan 7:17-27 Saints persecuted in all ages until second coming ends it. No coasting

 

The problem with that is that you would need the sense in 1Cor 15 that Paul is NOT addressing a future resurrection truth for all saints but rather is making the argument "I have some good news in the case of some of the saint. For in their case the resurrection evetn will go like this.."

So I ask you to read this part of 1Cor 15 carefully and tell me -- is Paul making the argument "here is what is applicable to some of the saints"?


1Cor 15
48 As is [b]the earthy, so also are those who are earthy[/b]; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also[/b] bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that [b]flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; [b]we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and [b]this mortal[/b] will have put on immortality, [/b]then will come about the saying that is written, "" [b]DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
55 "" O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?''
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57 but thanks be to [/b]God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Alas - I find myself sending this message from India once again and the hour is late. I will post more later in the day)

 

#1. I gave 1Cor 15:48-57 showing that the scope of the chapter is for ALL the saints and can not possibly be limited to "some isolated group of saints". You did not respond to those texts and SHOW that they CAN be reworked to anything other than all saints.

#2. Even the context for vs 23 shows that the context is ALL saints who have "Fallen Asleep in Christ" see vs 18, AS in Adam ALL die so in Christ ALL will be made alive. Is there ANY reason to see this REDUCED to something LESS than all saints made alive in Christ????.

There is no possibility of revising this down to "just a group of saints at the end of time".

1Cor 15
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.[/b]

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits[/b], after that those who are Christ's [b]at His coming[/b],
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, [b]when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The [b]last enemy that will be abolished is death.

It would take a huge amount of effort to try to work vs 23 down in scope as opposed to vs 22 being truly ALL who are made alive in Christ!! Why go through all that work trying to change it? What beliefs are forcing you to rework the chapter??

 

No problem I forgive you sir.

My suggestion though is that you keep this issue of knowing what to say before God- in Col 4 God tells us to pray at all times "so that we might know how to respond to each person -- your words seasoned as it where with salt".

These debate boards make it easy to slip off the path of objective exchange of Bible study truth - and get into personnal attacks. My responses tend to be very direct and "analytical" when it comes to finding support or lack of it from the Bible which could make it very difficult for someone who is emotionally tied to whatever the topic is.

I have seen more than one person shoot off like a rocket when confronted with a frank review of the Bible support or lack thereof for a favorite POV, and I am praying about ways that I might find to lesson their risk of such a reaction.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Is it your opinion that Paul is speaking to SEVERAL resurrections
(to get aLL covered regarding the righteous) but only identifying ONE?

Is that because your prior position "needs" that or did you read something in the text that states it??

in Christ,

Bob