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The Fourth Commandment

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, May 31, 2010.

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  1. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    #41 Eric B, Jun 6, 2010
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    That is incorrect. The term translated "Sabbath" and the terms that translated "week" and "seven" do not come from the same hebrew concept. The term translated "week" comes from the Hebrew "shebuwa" that has it origin in the idea of a "oath" whereas "Sabbath" from "Shabbath" has its origin in the idea of "rest" or "cessation." The term used is "shabbath" not "shebuwa" or "shebee" (seven).

    Leviticus 23:14 has reference to bread made from the harvest as the firstfruit must first be given to God before man could partake of it. Second, we know unleavened bread is eaten on 14th of Nissan in the passover, but was bread from previous harvests. So your argument for verse 14 is wrong.
     
    #42 Dr. Walter, Jun 6, 2010
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  3. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Even if you are right, you prove my point. The term Sabbath and the Sabbath law, which has no other source but the fourth commandment, has a WIDER application than to the seventh day "of the week" as your argument above would verify.

    Second, Deuteronomy gives an entirely different reason for the Sabbath Law thus again demonstrating a wider base for Sabbath observance than creation.

    In addition, it is applied to greater length of time than a 24 hour period, thus again demonstrating a wider application than the 7th day "of the week."

    Thus the SDA are correct for applying it to the seventh day "of the week" but they are incorrect in demanding it is restricted to the seventh day "of the week." God's application is wider than the SDA. God applies it to different days of the week, different periods of time than 24 hours and gives a different reason than creation.

    However, The feast of weeks is distinctly said to begin with the day after the Sabbath and the normal reading of that would require the regular weekly Sabbath.

    Last, of all, verse 14 refers to bread made from the new harvest not from the previous days as unleavened bread was eaten on the 14 of Nissan before the offering of the firstfruit.
     
    #43 Dr. Walter, Jun 6, 2010
  4. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    shabbath

    Root Word (Etymology)
    Intensive from שָׁבַת (H7673)
    Outline of Biblical Usage
    1) Sabbath
    a) sabbath
    b) day of atonement
    c) sabbath year
    d) week
    e) produce (in sabbath year)

    Also, where does v.14 say anything about bread from a new or previous harvest?
     
    #44 Eric B, Jun 7, 2010
  5. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    What do you think the unleavened bread for passover is made from??? That occurred on the 14th of nissan. Hence, verse 14 simply forbids anything made out of the first-fruits of the new harvest until God gets the first of it.

    You need to dig a little deeper on the root terms behind "week" and "Sabbath." Your source is incorrect. Your source is interpreting applications rather than giving you the actual root differences.
     
    #45 Dr. Walter, Jun 7, 2010
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  6. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Yes, the old bread would be from the previous harverst, but the verse still doesn't say anything about any new bread made from the new harvest. When it says "no bread' shall be eaten until the sheaf is waved, it doesn't say "no bread made from the waved grains". It just says no bread, which would assume that it was also from the previous harvests.

    Also, while the roots may be different, if the usage still includes "weeks", then that is what matters. Language/words do change.
     
    #46 Eric B, Jun 8, 2010
  7. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    The Israelites are commanded to give the "first-fruits" to God BEFORE they partake of any of that harvest - this is the meaning of verse 14 - nothing of that harvest can be eaten until after the sheave is given to God. Hence, prior eating beginning with passover unleavened bread and feast of unleavened bread is all made from previous harvest.

    It is not merely a difference of roots but a difference of noun forms. The Hebrew form used for to translate "Sabbath" is "shabbath". However, the noun form to translate "week" is "Shebuwa." The term "Sabbath" is not a translation of "Shebuwa" anywhere in this chapter or in Levitus 25 but of "shabbath.

    Let us suppose your argument is correct, that the first sabbath fell upon any day of the week and they are then counting from this first of any day in the week Sabbath 49 more days and the 50th ends up on an any day of the week Sabbath, this demonstrates the Sabbath application here stemming from the fourth commandment has a wider application than the seventh day "of the week" and thus to restrict it to the seventh day "of the week" violates God's own application and therefore the design for the fourth command is wider and cannot be restricted to the seventh day "of the week" without God violating that restriction by his own application of it to other days of the week, to other time periods (years) and for other reasons than creation (redemption - Deut. 5). Hence, the wider application gives latitude for a "first day of the week" application to commemorate a principle it already includes (redemption - Deut. 5) and a new creation to come.
     
    #47 Dr. Walter, Jun 8, 2010
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The point being repeatedly glossed over in that part of your solution is that "The source" of authority for even the SEVENTH-day SAbbath is "The Word of GOD".

    Thus when "The Word of God" in Lev 23 gives the command for the ceremonial Sabbaths - it is "The Word of God" that is "the Source".

    Pretty hard to miss.

    Deuteronomy reminds the listeners 40 years AFTER Sinai and the tablets of stone "Observe the Sabbath day to Keep it holy AS THE Lord your God commandED you" refering back to the original wording.

    Then we have the "Additional motivation" specific to Israel for choosing to Honor God's already completely defined Creation Sabbath given - in Deut 5:14.

    Thus the only biblical point you actually have here is that once God establishes a given law/commandment (such as the annual Sabbaths) via "His Word" -- He can "add reasons to obey" (add motivating arguments) that original command as previously defined and given.

    For as Deut 5:22 states of the previously given Ten Commandments -- given 40 years before Deuteronomy "These Words the Lord SPOKE... and He added no more".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #48 BobRyan, Jun 9, 2010
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    From that article we have

    A good list by Hank I must admit.

    (He could have added however that the New Covenant places the Law of God on the heart - and that as Paul said in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God")

    And that God specifically condemns replacing the "commandments of God" with the "traditions of man".

    Mark 7
    6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
    7 " BUT     IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
    8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
    9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside     the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
    10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
    11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
    12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
    13     thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #49 BobRyan, Jun 9, 2010
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  10. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    I have heard many people (young and not so young) speak evil of their parents. If you have also, how many have you put to death for it?
     
    #50 Alcott, Jun 9, 2010
  11. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    The fourth commandment IS the "word of God" that deals with the Sabbath! Leviticus 23 and 25 use the term "Sabbath" which originates with the fourth comamndment as THE WORD OF GOD!!!!!!! You cannot pit one part of God's Word against another as though they have no relationship to each other and as though Leviticus is independent in God's mind from Exodus or Deuteronomy. The basis for the Word of God in Leviticus IS the Word of God in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Your argument that the source of Leviticus 23,25 use of Sabbath is "the word of God" as opposed to Exodus and Deuternonomy is nonsense. Do you think that 40 years places a TIME GAP or a THEOLOGICAL GAP in the mind of God concerning His design and application of the Sabbath??? Do you think there is no relationship in God's Word, much less in God's mind for His application of the Sabbath command between Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy????????? This is a stupid argument.


    Deuteronomy does not give redemption from Egypt as an "additional motivation" as the work of creation is not even mentioned in Deuteronomy and the wording on redemption is as much as a REASON as Creation is given as a REASON for obeying it.

    Last, your nonsensical reasonings do not change the fact that the Sabbath command in the fourth commandment is given a WIDER application by God, as you admit the Leviticus application is "the Word of God", than SDA restriction of the fourth command. God's Word gives it a wider application than to the
    7th day "of the week", a wider application than a 24 hour day (year) and another REASON for observance than the seven days of creation. Thus the WIDER application allows for God to apply it to the first day of the week as well because it fits within the very same peramiters, with this exception - A BETTER and GREATER work of redemption - the cross, a BETTER and GREATER creation - new heavens and earth.




     
    #51 Dr. Walter, Jun 9, 2010
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. The Word of God - 66 books of scripture.

    The Word of God speaking specifically to the 7th day memorial of Christian Gen 2:1-3, Ex 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13-14

    Is 66:23, Mark 2:27-28, Acts 13:14,43-44, Acts 15:21, Heb 4:9 etc

    Well we agree that Lev 23 and 25 are also "The Word of God" - but at no point does the Word of God in Lev 23 or Lev 25 only have value because of the Word of God in Gen 2:1-3 or Ex 20:8-11. Rather the Word of God is always authorotative in itself.

    That is the nature of "The Word". Each time God speaks - mankind is held accountable.

    funny - That is what I was about to say to you - ;)

    The basis of Authority for God's Word is -- God.

    Not so. My argument that God's Word is authoritative because God is the one speaking - is accepted by almost all Bible scholars.

    Your argument is that the rest and holy day concept that God places in the 7th day Sabbath is also applied by God to annual feast days some thousands of years after Genesis is not debated. The point that is debated is your idea that the origin of Passover is the 7th day Sabbath - it is not. The origin of Passover is the Word of God Lev 23 and in Exodus 12.

    The 7th day memorial of creation is not mentioned at all as the reason or basis of Passover -- no not in Lev 23, not in Exodus 12 where Passover is first observed.

    Impossible point to miss.

    Less pulpit pounding, more facts please. :type:

    This is where quoting the actual words of Deuteronomy would have helped you avoid a blunder. Notice that Moses begins the 4th commandment with a reference to the PREVIOUS statement on Sinai

    12 " Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
    13 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

    Wrong.

    In the Ex 20:8-11 the 6 days of work - with the 7thd day rest is given as the cycle and the reason for observing that pattern is "FOR in SIX days the LORD made... and RESTED

    Ex 20
    8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    9 "" six days you shall laborand do all your work,
    10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
    11 "" for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


    A perfect match with Gen 2:1-3
    1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
    2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
    3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
    4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.


    I find your logic to be illusive at that point.

    The Sabbath authority is derived from the fact that "God Spoke" it.

    The same as God spoke the other annual feast days of Lev 23 and God spoke the Lev 19:18 command to love your neighbor.

    One cannot bend the bible to say that because God spoke the command to celebrate communion and the command to Love your Neighbor - that loving your neigbor is now replaced by the Lord's Supper.

    The bible-bending your argument needs to survive is not valid.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #52 BobRyan, Jun 12, 2010
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  13. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    The Restricted View of the Sabbath Command

    There are two views that restrict the Sabbath Command into a narrower design than intended by God.

    1. The Seventh Day Adventist - Seventh day "of the week" restriction
    2. The gospel rest - spiritual rest in Christ by faith

    The latter is disproven by Hebrews 4:2 which demonstrates that Old Testament saints entered into spiritual rest by faith in Christ (Acts 10:43) and yet still observed a sabbath day keeping. Hebrews 4:3-11 demonstrate that the sabbath day rest in Genesis has an antitype application and it is not found in the spiritual rest of the gospel (vv. 2-3) or seventh day "of the week" or in the palestine rest which Joshua provided for the people of God or the rest from all enemies provided by King David, or provided in the new Sabbath day observance that commemorates a greater work than creation - the work of redemption (Sunday) but finds its final application not in a limited seventh thousand year but rather in the eternal EIGHTH day rest of a new creation.

    The former (SDA) is disproven by Leviticus 23,25; Deuteronomy 5 and Hebrews 4:2-11 which demonstrate that God's design for the application of the Sabbath rest EXCEEDS the seventh day "of the week" but extends to other days of the year, to other periods than a 24 hour day (month, year) and to another GREATER Sabbath observance day (first day of the week) as well as to the GREATER Sabbath observance or eternal EIGHTH DAY in a new creation.

    Both of the positions can prove their limited applications to be true but neither can prove that the Sabbath rest law is limited to either.
     
    #53 Dr. Walter, Jun 14, 2010
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I would argue that Seventh-day Adventists did not write Exodus 20:8-11.

    Ex 20
    8 ""Remember the Sabbath day,     to keep it holy.
    9 ""     Six days     you shall labor and do all your work,
    10 but     [/COLOR]the seventh day is the Sabbath     of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
    11 ""     For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

    Nor did Sevent-day Adventists write Genesis 2:1-3.

    Genesis 2:

    1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
    2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He     rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
    3 Then     God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
    4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

    Isaiah 66:23 from Sabbath to Sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,'' says the LORD.

    Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE for Mankind"
    1. At no point does any NT author spend any time at all proclaiming "Sunday as the Sabbath".

    At no point in any of those texts is there a seventh-day cycle basis for any Sabbath concept - other than the Creation Sabbath.

    And so it is that in Deut 4 - God applies the added motivation for keeping ALL of His Word - ALL of His Commandments - and that motivation was his deliverance of Israel.

    The same "added motivation" model is argued in Deut 5 for the Sabbath.


    Deut 4
    32 ""Indeed, ask now concerning the former days which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and inquire from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything been done like this great thing, or has anything been heard like it?
    33 "" Has any people heard the voice of God speaking from the midst of the fire, as you have heard it, and survived?
    34 "" Or     has a god tried to go to take for himself a nation from within another nation by trials, by signs and wonders and by war and by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm and by great terrors, as the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before     your eyes?
    35 ""To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
    36 "" Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire.
    37 ""     Because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them. And He personally brought you from Egypt     by His great power,
    38 driving out from before you     nations greater and mightier than you    , to bring you in and to give you their land for an inheritance, as it is today.
    39 ""Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
    40 ""     So you shall keep His statutes and His commandments which I am giving you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may live long on the land which the LORD your God is giving you for all time.''
     
    #54 BobRyan, Jun 14, 2010
  15. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Nobody said they wrote it! What I condemned is their restricted interpertation of it. God's word condemns their restricted interpretation of it. Mark 16:9; Hebrews 4:9-10, Rev. 1:10; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; are some New Testament texts that established the first day of the week as the BETTER and GREATER Sabbath day for Christians. Psalms 118:20-24 with Acts 4:10 also established it as the new Sabbath day for Christians.

    You have not disproven the exegetical commentaries I have provided for all the above texts. Simply making declarations like "not so" or "not true" or other non-exegetical remarks disprove nothing said.


     
    #55 Dr. Walter, Jun 15, 2010
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting declarations - but as I pointed out.

    No mention at all of week day one in Heb 4 -- no not even one.

    No mention at all of week day one in Rev 1:10 -- no not even once. AND no mention of the Lord's Day being a designator for week-day-1 in Rev 1. The best we have is Mark 2:28 "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" and Is 58 telling us that the Sabbath is the "Holy day of the Lord".


    No mention at all of week-day-one being Sabbath in Mark 16.

    No mention at all of week-day-one being Sabbath in 1Cor 16:1-2 nor even of a weekday-one after week-day-one meeting in 1Cor 16 the entire chapter. But the devastating problem for the week-day-1 promoters is that IF 1Cor 16 were a reference to week-day-1 as a special day - why is it missing its designation of honor such as "Sabbath" or "Lord's day"? The fact that it is left at the level of the dead in the waater "week-day-1" designator is a compelling argument against eisegeting into 1Cor 16 "And so they met on the Lord's day so that each one could set his savings aside by himself".

    No mention at all in ALL of Ps 118 of "week day 1" OR of "the Sabbath".

    But in 1Cor 11 we are told that as often as we celebrate communion "26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. "

    Acts 4:10 make no mention either of Sabbath OR of "week day 1".

    Conclusion: One is awe struck by by the fact that the week-day-1-is-special argument

    1. must rely on so many texts that make no mention at all of week-day 1.
    2. Must rely on a list of texts that at no time say "week day 1 is the Lord's Day".
    3. Must rely on a list of texts that at no time say "the Sabbath is now week day 1".
    4. Must rely on a list of texts that CONTINUE whenever they do reference sunday to only call it by its normal "week day 1" name - and not "the Lord's Day" and not "Sabbath".

    By contrast the 7th day has "Remember the Sabbath day... the Seventh day is the Sabbath" Ex 20:8-11.

    thus the week-day-1 argument has no "sola scriptura" basis at all to it and the argument that this comes from "tradition alone" becomes a glaring reminder of the Mark 7:7-10 problem of the Jews.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #56 BobRyan, Jun 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2010
  17. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    You have no objectivity in your examination of scriptures or the arguments placed before you. I have laid down in exegetical fashion the contexual proofs and you have not responded with any exegetical evidence to overthrow a single one - you simply assert they are in error. So, why should I bother repeated the evidence - waste of my time. However, to any objective mind the evidence is substantial.

     
    #57 Dr. Walter, Jun 15, 2010
  18. rstrats

    rstrats Member
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    kyredneck,

    re: "...it included Sunday, the eighth day, the day those of the new covenant chose to meet...
    　
    　
    Actually, as far as the Bible is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody being together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first. The John reference has them together in a closed room after the crucifixion because they were afraid of their fellow Jews. Nothing is said about a celebration, worship service or day of rest. The Acts reference has them together because Paul happened to be in town and he wanted to talk to them before he had to leave again. The breaking of bread mentioned (even if it were referring to the Lord’s Supper) had nothing to do with placing a special emphasis on the first (day) because Acts 2:46 says that they broke bread every day.
     
    #58 rstrats, Jun 15, 2010
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Accusations are a dime a dozen. Anyone can make them. Proving them turns out to be the real challenge.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #59 BobRyan, Jun 15, 2010
  20. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You are catching on brother. :thumbsup:

    Tts 3:9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
    Tts 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
    Tts 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
     
    #60 steaver, Jun 15, 2010
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