The Fourth Commandment

Dr. Walter,

re: "I believe you are wrong in what you say above on several counts. John 20:19 and Acts 20:7 are not the only references to the church meeting on the Lord's Day - Sunday. In addition to those quotations are John 20:29; Acts 2:1 and 1 Cor. 16:1-2."

John 20:29 says nothing about anyone being together on the first day of the week.


As regards Acts 2:1, the verse is referring to the annual festival of Pentecost and not to a weekly first day gathering.
　
　

re: "After eight days (mey hmerav oktw). That is the next Sunday evening, on the eighth day in reality just like ‘after three days’ and ‘on the third day.’"

But eight days after what day? The scripture doesn’t say. But even if it were referring to eight days after the first day, eight days after would fall on the 2nd day of the week.

There is no reason in this specific instance to conclude that the phrases "after eight days" and "on the eighth day" are synonymous. The reason to conclude that "after three days" and "on the third day" are synonymous is to make them agree with the notion of a 6th day crucifixion/1st day resurrection.
　

　
re: "Whatever reason you want to ascribe for gathering on the first day of the week in I Cor. 16:1-2 does not change the fact that the Church at Corinth gathered on that day."
　
Corinthians 16:1-2 doesn’t say that. The text merely says that everyone should "lay by him in store" on the first day of the week. The Darby Translation reads: "On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come.". The New Swedish and Norwegian Bibles read: "At home by himself." The Lamsa Translation reads: "Let each of you put aside and keep in his house". The Wemouth reads: "Let each of you put on one side and store up at his home". Ballantine’s Translation reads: "Let each of you lay up at home". The Syriac, on this passage reads: "Let every one of you lay aside and preserve at home". And the New Catholic Edition of the Bible reads: ".......let each one of you put aside at home and lay up whatever he has a mind to". This verse says nothing about going to church on the first day or even assembling together on the first day.


The rest of your comments are not applicable to my post because I was only referring to actual agreed upon scripture and not to extra-biblical literature.

 

In John 20:19 "the doors were shut for fear of the Jews". They were hiding and were likely hiding since Friday. "Hiding" for 3 days is not the sign that one of them is now to be celebrated weekly.

1. I did not find any reference at all to "Week day one" in vs 29.

2. Going back to vs 19 - it was "evening". The days were celebrated from "evening to evening" which means that the events described after vs 19 are more likely to be "week day two" - but given that all events following in "that evening" are still "week day one" for the benefit of the doubt, at no point is this intent to meet related to something of a weekly cycle.

Indeed - they had yet to get all the details of the resurrection.

3. in 1Cor 16:1-2 there is no meeting at all mentioned as taking place on "week day one". However 1Cor 16 is important since it is the only text in all of the NT that indicates that some weekly-cycle based action was done repeatedly on "week day one" and that action was - setting aside savings - each individual by himself in anticipation of a future meeting with Paul.

Still even there - the day gets no higher honorary mention than "week day one".

Again - you assume the salient point of your statement "the church gathered on that day" rather than proving it.

There is no mention of "giving" on week day one in 1Cor 16:1-2.

There is no mention of "tithes" given on week day one in 1Cor 16:1-2.

And the money is not called an "offering" in 1 Cor 16:1-2 until Paul arrives - so it is more correctly "savings". "Let each one of you PUT ASIDE and SAVE" on "week day one" (NASB).

While the pagan origin for Sunday worship adopted by Christians in Constantine's command "Holy day of the sun" - in John's context the key for "Lord's Day" has to be found in the Words of Christ or scripture.

Mark 2:27 "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" and in Isaiah 58 "the Holy Day of the Lord".

The idea that the pagan emperor would have been a more compelling source for John in determining both a day of honor and a title is admitting more about the argument for "Week day one" than you might have at first imagined.

You have gone from a phrase - down to a single word and in that case have shown a text where there is no ambiguity in the assignment.

1Cor 11:20 speaks of "The Lord's Supper" and in vs 23 - 26 we see the explicit description of it - so that we need not imagine "Lord's Supper" appies to "some other event" or even a pagan holiday.

But in Rev 1 there is "week day one is the Lord's Day". All of those details have to be eisegeted into the text.

1. your "concurrent with the writing of the New Testament" combined with "after the Apostolic period" - shows a certain contradiction that does not escape the reader.

2. As for the tradtion element that replaces the 4th commandment with "week day one" there is much agreement on your point there.


------------------------------------------------------------
The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that

changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".
[/quote]

page 243

 

JOSEPHUS
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.


PHILO
Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99

"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

AFRICA (ALEXANDRIA) ORIGEN
"After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice (the crucifixion) is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9)." "Homily on Numbers 23," par.4, in Migne, "Patrologia Graeca," Vol. 12,cols. 749, 750.

"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34

 

The text says they were gathered for fear - fear of the Jews in John 20:19. Whatever you may think is the reason for meeting eight days later in 20:26 (which is either a Monday or a Tueday given that this is eight days after the evening termination of week-day-one according to vs 19) -- it is not a "week day one" meeting that you find in vs 26.

And even at that - would still not establish a new Monday or Tuesday weekly cycle terminus.

Whether you take that as Sunday, Monday or Tuesday - the fact that no "day number at all" is mentioned in vs 26 is devastating evidence against this being the announcement for a new weekly cycle scheme.

By contrast in Acts 13 when we see "Sabbath after Sabbath" and in Acts 17 "Three Sabbaths" - the day is mentioned with the nme of honor still given and not merely as "and after 8 days".

What exactly do you think is being repudiated -- a Sunday resurrection or that the John 20:19 meeting was at the far edge of Sunday such that what follows is more likely to be a Monday meeting by those who count their days "from evening to evening" - (Lev 23).

Having each person lay instore - by themselves some savings in anticipatoin of a future offering - is still done to this very day and in case where the person is paid weekly - they set aside those savings weekly -- without calling a church meeting to do so.

Now what is facinating is that you have no church meeting at all mentioned in 1Cor 16:1-2, nor anything like a weekly offering mentioned, nor "week-day-one is our Lord's Day" nor anything close to it.

Yet this is the tiny thread for hanging the hat "we think the Law of God was changed"???

Paul is speaking of savings. What you speak to is a world where money of any size and amount simply appears because believers happen to be meeint on a Saturday. Paul apparently did not share your view of the means by which that money would be guaranteed to be available.

2Cor 9:5 speaks of a gift that was promised - but neither 8 or 9 speaks of any specific day of the week for Paul to receive the gift.

There were no references to the Apostolic period in your list - that showed anyone claiming that the term "Lord's Day" at the time that John was writing was applied to "week day one", either by John or even as a Christian tradition in common usage at the time of John's writing.

For my part - in my references I show that the term "Sabbath" as still being used for the seventh-day of the week in the 3rd century.

in Christ,

Bob

 

GE:
"...the Lord's Day - Sunday" --- Not only 'wrong', but FALSE!

"...the church meeting on .... Sunday" Please SHOW in
John 20:29;
Acts 2:1 or,
1 Cor. 16:1-2

'Dr', please QUOTE!

 

GE:

Which 'over emphasis of language'?

Quote where "John makes it clear .... "even" only means late afternoon"?

Quote where "John makes it clear .... "it is the first day of the week .... not the second day of the week"?

Of course you cannot. Because John and Luke make it clear as common language can that 'it' --- the disciples "having been thronged together still" --- while it must have been after sunset and "IT BEING" - by now - AFTER, "VESPERS" Lk24:29 and no longer "afternoon" or "towards 'vespers'"; and day had had "declined"-'kekliken' fully already and was not 'declining' any longer and "BEING EVENING" ('ousehes opsias') Jn20:19 AFTER sunset and 'day'-'hehmera' HAD HAD begun its next cycle;

that then: as John says "THEN ('OUN') having been ('ousehs') on _THAT_ 'EKEINEHI miai (hehmerai)' --- which RELATIVE PRONOUN REFERS TO: _THAT_ PAST, and "First Day of the week" (Sunday). It does not say 'BEING on the First Day'; it says "being EVENING" REFERRING TO: "the EVENING" RELATIVE to "THAT day" the First Day of the week.

Just like to this very day we would speak in ordinary, plain English and anyone with an IQ of 75 or more would know we refer BACK FROM the "evening" to the PAST and no longer current, day.

 

GE:
My dear Dr Walter, YOURS, is an "interpretation".
John reads:
"ousehs oun opsias" - "then being evening";
"on THAT DAY" - 'tehi hehmerai EKEINEHI';
"WITH REFERENCE TO the First Day of the week" - 'tehi miai sabbatohn': Dative of Reference. In other words, the NORMAL Dative!

YOUR 'interpretation', Dr. (NOT mine!), needs an ACCUSATIVE in order to make possible the concept of "at evening being AFTER the first day of the week..." which is inexplicable NONSENSE.

I am talking about 'Sunday evening'; not about 'Saturday evening'. So does John. But 'evening on the First Day' would have been the beginning-part of "the First Day of the week", which would have been 'Saturday evening' --- which would in any case have meant the Resurrection was on the Sabbath. So, whichever way YOU 'interpret' John, you are left in the lurch by YOURSELF concerning Sunday-sacredness.

Therefore by now we have TWO factors that demand ‘it’ –-- the disciples’ “having been thronged together STILL” --- continued on the First Day while it had had begun at an indeterminate time BEFORE, except that the context demands that it was BEFORE “it being evening on _THAT_ day”: The two factors of:
1) The Relative Pronoun ‘ekeinehi’; and
2) The Dative of Reference.

Now I have not looked at A.T. Robertson whom you referred to but whom you did not quote but told us what you say he said. I want to bet he did NOT say what you said he said. (Yes, I gamble; and still reckon myself a Christian; because I gamble on things like this when I am certain.)

 

GE:
What pattern? There is NO 'pattern'. A 'pattern' in John 20:19, 26; Acts 2:1 is the dream of Sundaydarians. It turned out to be a nightmare.

 

Refer:

http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book%203,%201,%202,%203.Pentecost.pdf

 

The Church traditionally holds to “Palm Sunday” as the fifth day before the Feast of Passover, John 12 which makes the day “before Passover”, Thursday – the day on which, according to all the Gospels, Jesus was crucified. That in turn makes Jesus’ resurrection “the third day”, on the Sabbath. Tradition – Palm Sunday, contradicts tradition – Friday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection.
The same kind of enigmatic tradition is displayed in the tradition of Pentecost. The Church at large teaches that God’s promise of the Holy Spirit was fulfilled on the “Fiftieth Day” according to Acts 2:1. The Church teaches that Jesus was crucified on a Friday. The Church teaches that that Friday was the 15th Nisan of the Jewish calendar. NAT 1979 Word-list The Church teaches that the 16th Nisan, the day after the Passover “sabbath”, was the first day of the fifty counted days. The Church teaches that the fiftieth of the fifty counted days was a Sunday. Now let us see how that is calculated.

 

The Last Week

“ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES”[1] ... “THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH”[2]


The First Month for You
"Observe the Month of Abib!"[3] Christ our Passover sacrificed[4]; Lamb of God[5]; A Lamb stood on the mount; they sang a new song before the Throne[6]



Friday
"The eighth day of Abib, they came"[7], He came to Bethany.[8]



Saturday (Abib 9)
Six days before the Passover Feast; where Lazarus stayed; lunch.[9]



‘Palm Sunday’ (5 days before Feast)
The next day[10], "tenth day of Abib”[11], Jerusalem; branches of palm trees.[12] Late; to Bethany.[13]



Monday (Abib 11; 4 days before Feast)
The next day[14] From Bethany; fig tree; in temple; when late out of city; to Bethany.[15]

[1] 1Cor15:3-4
[2] Mt12:40
[3] Dt16:1-3, 2Chr29:15a
[4] 1Cor5:7
[5] Jh1:29,36
[6] Rv14:1,3, 15:3; Ps40:2-3, 138; Ex15:1-3, 6-7, 16-18; Eph1:17-23; Ro6:4; Col2:12b, 15
[7] 2Chr29:15b
[8] Jn11:56, 12:1a
[9] Jn12:1b
[10] Jn12:12a
[11] Ex12:3,6
[12] Jh12:12b-13
[13] Mk11:11
[14] Mk11:12-13, Mt21:18-19
[15] Mk11:19, Mt21:17

 

Tuesday (Abib 12; 3 days before Feast)
The next day[1]; returned to city; saw fig tree; in temple; out of temple; mount of Olives.[2] = “When Jesus had
finished these sayings, he said to his disciples, You know that after two days is the Passover when the Son of Man is to be crucified (Abib 14).”[3]


Wednesday (Abib 13; 2 days before Feast)
In the night (Tuesday-night) He abode in the mount.[4] Early in the morning; all the people came to the temple[5]; The Feast Day when they began to eat Unleavened Bread drew nigh[6]; After two days was the Feast Day[7] of the Passover of Unleavened Bread; The priests sought how they might take Him; not on the Feast![8]

And He being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper ... Judas went to the priests to betray Him unto them without tumult.”[9]

[1] Mk11:20, Mt21:18,23, Lk20:1
[2] Mk13:1,3
[3] Mt26:2, Jesus’ own words to his disciples; “two days” to Nisan 14, but 3 days to Nisan 15.
[4] Lk21:37
[5] Lk21:38
[6] Lk22:1
[7] Mk14:1, Abib 15; Mark’s words to the readers.
[8] Mk14:2, Mt26:5, Nisan 13 – “Not on the Feast Day”, Nisan 15, yet!
[9] Mk14:3,10, Mt26:6,15, Lk22:3


Thursday (Abib 14; 1 day before Feast)

"The fourteenth day"[1] Before the Feast[2]; the first[3] day Leaven had[4] to be Removed; began[5]; the night in which He was betrayed[6]; the Preparation of the Passover[7]; when always[8] the Passover must[9] be killed; My time is at hand.[10] In the evening[11] when the hour was come[12] He sat down with the disciples. His hour was come.[13] It was night.[14] This day in this night[15]; this hour[16]; Enough, the hour had come[17]; Behold, the Son of Man is betrayed!

[1] Lv23:5
[2] Jn13:1
[3] Mt26:17a
[4] Ex12:19
[5] Lk22:7a
[6] 1Cor11:23
[7] Jn19:14
[8]Mk14:12a/17, Mt26:17a/20, Lk22:7a/14, Jn13:1
[9] Lk22:7b
[10] Mt26:18b
[11] Mk14:17, Mt26:20
[12] Lk22:14
[13] Jn13:1
[14] Jn13:30b
[15] Mk14:30
[16] Mk14:35, Mt26:39a
[17] Mk14:41b Mt26:45b
[18] Jn18:28
[19] Jn19:14
[20] Mk15:25
[21] Mk15:33
[22] Mt27:50
[23] Lk23:48

 

It was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the passover.[1]
It was the Preparation of Passover six o’clock am ... Behold, your King![2] It was the third hour when they crucified Him.[3] When the sixth hour was come, there was darkness until the ninth hour.[4] Jesus then after, yielded up the ghost.[5]

And all the people that came to that sight, when having seen the things which were done, went away and returned.[6]

[1] Jn18:28
[2] Jn19:14
[3] Mk15:25
[4] Mk15:33
[5] Mt27:50
[6] Lk23:48


Friday The Feast

After this because it was the Preparation, Joseph of Arimathea, secretly for fear of the Jews, went[1] in[2] boldly unto Pilate[3], (and) besought (him) that he might take away the body of Jesus.[4] And Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore and took down[5] the body of Jesus (and) away[6]. Having bought linen[7], Joseph wrapped[8] the body. There came also Nicodemus who the first time came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh about an hundred pound. Then prepared[9] they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen with the spices as the manner of the Jews is to bury.[10]
[1] Mt27:58
[2] Mk15:43 – cf. Jn18:28
[3] Lk23:52
[4] Jn19:38 ‘arehi’
[5] Mk15:46a, Lk23:53a ‘kathelohn’
[6] Jn19:38c ‘ehren’
[7] Mk15:46
[8] Lk23:53 ‘kathelohn – enetulicsen’
[9] Jn19:40a, ‘elabon – edehsan’; Mt27:59a ‘labohn – enetulicsen’
[10] Jn19:39-40


Daylight Procession

The women also, who came with Him from Galilee (Mary Magdalene and the other Mary), followed the procession.[1]

There was a garden in the place where He was crucified, and in the garden a new sepulchre, hewn out of rock[2], wherein was never man yet laid.[3] There laid they[4] Jesus because of the Jews’ preparations.[5]

Mary Magdalene and the other Mary sitting over against the sepulchre[6] beheld where[7] (and) how his body was laid.[8]

(Joseph) rolled a great[9] stone unto the door of the sepulchre[10], and departed.[11]

(The women) returned home also, and prepared spices and ointments.[12]

The day was The Preparation, afternoon while the Sabbath drew on.[13]

[1] Lk23:55
[2] Mk15:46c, Mt 27:60b
[3] Jn19:41
[4] Jn19:38a, 39a, Joseph and Nicodemus
[5] Jn19:42
[6] Mt27:61
[7] Mk15:47
[8] Lk23:55b
[9] Mt27:60c
[10] Mk15:46d
[11] Mt27:60d
[12] Lk23:56a
[13] Lk23:54

 

Saturday (Abib 16)

“First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD; on the day after the sabbath (of the Passover, Abib 15).”[1]

The women began[2] to rest the Sabbath Day according to the (Fourth) Commandment.[3]

The morning sunrise, all their precautions despite, the chief priests and Pharisees had a meeting with Pilate, and protested, But Sir, we remember this deceiver said while he was yet alive, After[4] three days I will rise again! Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day has passed; lest his disciples come by night and steal him away, and say, he is risen.[5] So they secured the tomb by sealing the stone and setting a watch.[6]

[1] Lv23:10,15-16
[2] Ingressive Aorist. Cf. Lv23:32, Dt24:15
[3] Lk23:56b
[4] “After” is used idiomatically for Matthew’s usual “the third day”, 12:40, 16:21,23, 20:19. “After tree days” – not ‘after the third day’! It does not mean on a fourth day after three days. Cf. 26:2, “after two days the Feast”, inclusive of first and last days.
[5] Mt27:62-64
[6] Mt27:66

In the slow hours[1] of the Sabbath’s[2] after noon[3], towards the First Day of the week – explained the angel[4]:– When suddenly there was a great earthquake, (and) Mary Magdalene and the other Mary set out[5] to go[6] have a look at the grave[7], Behold! For the angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and hurled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow. And for fear of him the keepers did shake and became as dead.[8]

[1] Dionysius
[2] ‘Sabbath’s-time’
[3] ‘Being (day)light tending’
[4] Mt28:5a
[5] Wenham
[6] Infinitive of intention
[7] Mt28:1
[8] Mt28:2-4


Sunday (Abib 17)

And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought sweet spices that when[1] they come, they might anoint Him.[2]

Early darkness still the First Day of the week, Mary Magdalene comes[3] to the sepulchre and sees the stone taken away from it! Then she runs and comes to Peter.[4]

On the First Day of the week, deep dark morning[5], they[6] and certain other with them, went[7] to the grave bringing their spices which they had prepared. And they found[8] the stone rolled away from the grave.[9]

[1] They did not then, immediately, go to the tomb, but first waited.
[2] Mk16:1a Salome did not know of events.
[3] Notice the Present!
[4] Jn20:1 futher
[5] Lk24:1 ‘órthrou bathéohs’
[6] The two Marys and Salome. A variant has “three women”.
[7] Notice the Past!
[8] Just as Mary must have told them!
[9] Lk24:1 further

Very early before sunrise on the First Day of the week, they[1], came[2] to the tomb. Talking among themselves, they wondered: Who could have rolled the stone away for us (for it was exceedingly big!)?[3] So on re-investigation[4] they found that the stone was thrown back uphill![5] ... They fled from the sepulchre, for they trembled and were amazed. They told nobody anything, because they were afraid.[6] ... But Mary had had stood after[7] in front of the tomb. Weeping, she bent over and looked inside the sepulchre. ... She turned herself around, and saw Jesus ... supposing Him to be the gardener ...[8] Risen (Jesus), very early daylight on the First Day of the week, first appeared to Mary Magdalene.[9]

[1] Mary Magdalene, the other Mary and Salome, but probably ‘others with them’ again.
[2] ‘erchontai’, Present of past meaning; they first ‘come’ = ‘came’, KJV, then ‘talked’.
[3] Mk16:4c, They were familiar with the situation already; it was not their first visit to the tomb!
[4] Mk16:4a, ‘anablepsasai’
[5] Mk16:4b, ‘anakekúlistai’
[6] Mk16:8
[7] Jn20:11a, “heistehkehi”, Pluperfect
[8] Jn20:15b
[9] Mk16:9 The other women must have returned to the grave after Jesus had appeared to Mary, when “The angel explained to them”, and they believed, and Jesus appeared to them while they went to tell the others. Refer to Mt28:5 further.

 

Dr. Walter,

re: "...you have to have objective mind..."

Agreed. An objective mind would take or not take scripture for what it does or doesn’t say. It wouldn’t make assumptions - as a subjective mind would - in an effort to help validate one’s already seated positions with regard to doctrinal issues.
　
　
re: "Sorry, it was John 20:26 not John 20:29 and note the word ‘again’ and the same group in the same place with the doors locked again and ‘eight days’ begins with the day in John 20:19..."

Your subjective mind is assuming that the "after eight days" comment is in relationship to the first day mentioned in verse 19. You are assuming that it was still the first day when Thomas was told about the appearing of the Messiah in verse 25. But even if the "after eight days" comment was referring to eight days after the "first day" in verse 19, you would end up at the second day of the week at the earliest. What if verse 26 had said; "And after one day, His disciples were again inside..."? To what day would that be referring?