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The Gathering of the Church/the Rapture

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ray Berrian, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Gina L,

    You would not consider yourself a prophetess, but you sure shook my being. I agreed with your post and wonder about my own spiritual strength. Your ideas made me want to dig deeper and prayer more fervently for myself, my loved ones and our government leadership.

    I am concerned about Mosques going up in our USA. The Israelites fell to foreign nations and yet some Christian Americans think they can vote for pro-abortion, pro-gay rights and the Lord will not hold them accountable. What a surprize awaits them!

    When people say, "As long as we are right with God it doesn't matter about end times events." Usually, as you said, they are lazy and uninformed Christians.

    Should we not inform our loved ones, friends, and acquaintances about the future Great Tribulation, in case they do not meet the Lord in the air? {I Thess. 4:16} I say that true information is important to us so we can warn the lost, that Jesus is coming for His people who love Him. Then when the antichrist demands the mark in the forhead and the right hand,[Revelation 13:16] they will not take it, which, of course, will insure them of everlasting life with Christ.
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Downsville,

    You explain to me why there is a necessity for the Judgment Seat of Christ? [II Corinthians 5:10 & Romans 14:10]

    Who are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment?

    Check my previous posts on this subject. If you really don't know the difference in these two judgments, I will assist you in answering these two questions. If you think I might not give you the right answer, you might check with a theological book at your local Christian book store.

    If you have sons or your brother or sister have two sons, you do not call one Bob and the other one Ryan because they are one entity. Each personal name suggests a unique person and personality.

    The Lord does not name two unique judgement seats without a real reason.

    Regards,
    Dr. Berrian
     
  3. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    Ray, I just read your post and I loved it!

    That is exactly why we need to be wary of the "rapture" thing, where we are zapped out of here before the 7 years tribulation.

    I know rapture is a nice warm fuzzy thing, but what happens if people who are pre-trib are wrong?

    They would just keep on believing that whatever is going on is O.K. because "they're still here".

    May He give revelation and wisdom to all who need it!

    Working for Him.

    Tam,

    :D [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    I meant the one you posted at 5:43 today, not the last one.

    That is why we need to pray and study and watch whats going on in this world.

    Tam
     
  5. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Glory be to God Ray. [​IMG] I'm glad someone was able to understand what I was attempting to get across.
    Now, back to popping my gum and finding shiny things. [​IMG]

    Eschatologist, who were you asking about the literal ending of time and our universe? I reread and didn't see it brought up or really even alluded to.
    Gina
     
  6. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    eschatologist,

    You said, 'The Bible does not aver an ending of this literal physical universe, nor is there
    a literal ending of time. If you believe so please show me these passages that have you convinced otherwise.'

    Your title/name fooled me. I thought you were more orthodox in the Christian faith than your statement above seems to suggest.

    I like clean air and an careful to re-cycle, but I smile with extreme environmentalists. They worry about this world when God speaking through the Apostle Peter in II Peter 3:10-12 indicates that at some future time the Lord Himself will dissolve our upper atmosphere and perhaps planets along with this earth that we are walking on called our world.

    Another verse that indicates that God is going to destroy or remove the heavenly bodies including the earth is found in Revelation 20:11c. When the wicked of all time are judged by the Lord, it will not be on earth or in Heaven. Where will it be? I don't know.

    Time ends for all human beings; saint and sinner. At death time is not an important factor for the deceased; time for these people will become eternity either in Heaven or Hell. Does not the judgment for sinners on the Last Day [John 6:39, 40, 44, 54] infer the ending of that which we call time?

    Regards,
    Ray
     
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Tam,

    You said, '
    posted March 10, 2004 03:06 PM



    Ray, I just read your post and I loved it!

    That is exactly why we need to be wary of the "rapture" thing, where we are
    zapped out of here before the 7 years tribulation.

    I know rapture is a nice warm fuzzy thing, but what happens if people who
    are pre-trib are wrong?

    Ray is saying, 'What makes you think I and others need 'warm fuzzies.' I would hope that I could endure even physical death if the Lord wanted me to go through this experience for His glory. This happens in China and Africa on a daily basis. We are not looking for an excape route, by way of the Rapture. The creme de la creme of Biblical scholars and men and women who exegete Scripture believe this to be one aspect of Christ's human history.

    You said, ' They would just keep on believing that whatever is going on is O.K. because
    "they're still here".

    Ray is saying, 'If the television media and rado media showed thousands of opened graves in every nation, would that not open your eyes to this unprecadented event in entire history of the world. Sinners who remain here, some of them already know about the Biblical event called the rapture and the soon coming antichrist after Christ takes His people to Heaven.'

    You said, 'May He give revelation and wisdom to all who need it!'

    Ray is saying, 'Yes, we all need the Holy Spirit's illumination as to the things of God.'

    You said, 'Working for Him.'

    Ray is saying, 'Keep up the good work for His working in the hearts of the saved and the lost.'

    Blessings . . . .
     
  8. Downsville

    Downsville New Member

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    Ray
    You explain to me why there is a necessity for the Judgment Seat of Christ? [II Corinthians 5:10 & Romans 14:10]

    Who are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment?

    Check my previous posts on this subject. If you really don't know the difference in these two judgments, I will assist you in answering these two questions

    Im listening
     
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Tam,

    Even if God takes the dead saints bodies to Heaven without opening the graves, there will still be multi-millions of Christians who will be alive and well, at His coming for the church. Note: [I Thessalonians 4:15 says, ' . . . that we who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord, shall not hinder those who are asleep.' Asleep in the Bible always speaks of a Christians death, or the Christian dead.'

    Emphasis on 'we who are alive . . . . at the coming of the Lord . . . ' These will rise to the cloud level and then on to Heaven. [I Thess. 4:17]
     
  10. Downsville

    Downsville New Member

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    Ray
    As for goin out to buy books on the subject, i see no need.

    Eccles.12[11]The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. [12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. [13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

    Ok Ray, so your saying that verse 14 is speaking of 2 separate judgments. Why 2?
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Downsville,

    You said, 'Ray
    You explain to me why there is a necessity for the Judgment Seat of Christ?
    [II Corinthians 5:10 & Romans 14:10]

    'I do not know why the Lord is going to do things in His exacting way. As soon as the Christians rise to be with Christ [I Thess. 4:16] they will undergo His strict, Divine evaluation. This will not be to either send them to Hell because they will already be in Heaven. I Corinthians 3:11-15, II Cor. 5:10, and Romans 14:10 all indicate that God will be judging us for our service to Him while on the earth, our faithfulness in all areas of our lives. Nothing in these passages indicate that sinner are judged and sent to Hell.'

    You said, 'Who are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment?'

    More than 1,000 years later after Christ's reign on the earth [Zechariah chapter 14] and Revelation 20:1-7 -six different times our Lord speaks of this set aside Millennium of time. John the Apostle says in 20:5 'The rest of the dead did not come to life again, until {Christ's reign on earth was ended}.

    God will not judge sinners one thousand and seven years before, because they are not pointed to in the Judgment Seat of Christ passages. After, all if he did, then the remaining sinners would have to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.

    The 'rest of the dead' [Revelation 20:5] were sinners who were not gathered with Christ when He will have come for His church. [I Thess. 4:16-17]

    The 'first resurrection' [Revelation 20:5b] refers to all saints for all time who will be resurrected from their earthly graves, plus living saints at the time of His gathering in of His people. In verse six, John speaks of those who are marked, if you will, with the 'second death.' These are all lost souls who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment in verse eleven. The definition of the 'second death' is defined in verse 14, of whom I do not want to be included.

    The Book of Life has in it the names of all of His people who will enter Heaven. [vs. 15]
    The other books mentioned in this chapter are found in verse twelve. 'The other books' include the name of the sinner and the listing of all his or her unforgiven sins, that will guarantee for them Hell for all eternity. Notice verse [12 d, g, h] ' . . . their works' refer to each of there evil deeds against the Lord God and human beings while they lived on earth, ignoring or openly rejecting His grace.

    There are no saints to be found in this Great White Throne Judgment found in Revelation 20:11-15.
     
  12. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Yes, a number can be figurative, but first, the problem with the figurative interpretation of the millenium is not the number as much as it is how the descriptions of this period match up with present realities. (a world of peace, Satan no longer deceiving the world, etc).
    Second, while those other examples are figures of innumerable amounts of things, the period between the Second Coming and the final judgment is not, but is rather a definite period of time (and as stated above, not the indefinite period of time of the ongoing Church age), so it is likely that is a literal number. Just because it could be figurative, as in other examples, doesn't mean it necessarily is. It depends on the context.
     
  13. Downsville

    Downsville New Member

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    Ray
    How many raptures(gatherings) are there?
     
  14. Downsville

    Downsville New Member

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    Ray
    Have you ever givin much thought as to why Jesus only named the commandments which deal with your interaction with man in the below scripture?

    Matthew 19[16]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    None of the commandments which deal with God himself were mentioned. I know there are many who believe these words of Christ were only true till Christ was crucified but....i believe HIS words will never pass away. There will be people at the great white throne that never even heard of Jesus Christ and there names will be written in the book of life if they kept those commandments which deal with man.
     
  15. Downsville

    Downsville New Member

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    REV.22[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    [16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    [17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    And the "bride"(those which enter the 1000 yr period of rest)will be keeping all the commandments, including Gods sabbath day. Just as the WORD says in rev.22.
     
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Downsville,

    You said, 'Ray, How many raptures (gatherings) are there?'

    Generally, the basic answer pastors tell their people is one. The taking of the church up to Heaven. [I Thess. 4:16]

    But, during the Great Tribulation [Matt. 24:21] there will be two witnesses mentioned in Revelation 11:4-12, especially vs. 12 indicates that God will 'rapture' them after their message is completed to the sinners who will be left behind at the Rapture of all the saints. In 11:12 the word, 'ascended' in the Greek is the word, {anabaino or anabaheeno} meaning (to go up; arise or to ascend.)

    Other saints were resurrected after Christ's resurrection but they died a natural death awaiting the Rapture of the church.

    The Great Tribulation martyrs will die and will go to Heaven but in Revelation chapter nineteen, Jesus will bring them with the Raptured saints at His Second Coming. These martyrs will go immediately into the theocratic reign of Christ on the earth. [Rev. 20:4]

    So in answer to your question there will be various bodily resurrections, but only one multiple billions and billions of saints who will ascend at the Rapture. [I Thess. 4:16]

    The rapture of the two witnesses will arise to Heaven as documented in paragraph three of this post.

    Revelation 6:9 & 14 are the Great Tribulation saints who will die and will go to Heaven just like our saved loved ones now go to Heaven immediately. Some think these Tribulation saints will ascend like Jesus did, but I believe they will come back with Jesus at the Second Coming and as said before, will go into the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. [Rev. 20:4]

    My belief is the Rapture of the billions of saints will take place, [I Thess. 4:16] plus the two witnesses during the Great Tribulation also called the 'two olive trees and the two candlesticks.' These are two most clear references to His people ascending into Heaven.
     
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    And the "bride"(those which enter the 1000 yr period of rest)will be keeping
    all the commandments, including Gods sabbath day. Just as the WORD says
    in rev.22.

    Yes, Downsville, I agree with you. Ezekiel also reveals that we will be keeping the sabbath during the theocratic reign of Christ. Note: Chapter 46:1,3,4, 12.

    There will also be a new Temple[Ezekiel 41:23 & 25 and many other places in this book]in Jerusalem [Zechariah 14:4, 12, 17] and we will be keeping the 'feast days.' [Ezekiel 46:9] This will be all new for me and most other Christians.
     
  18. Downsville

    Downsville New Member

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    So Ray

    EZEK.34 [11] For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.[12] As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.[13] And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

    If theres but 1 rapture,how does God gather the flock above. My guess is that it will be in the twinkling of an eye. You might also wanna notice the above gathering happens during the dark and cloudy day.

    JOEL 2 [1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;[2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

    Hmm.. The dark and cloudy day.THE DAY OF THE LORD. Hey Ray, look! A trumpet blowing. Do ya think it might be the last trumpet?
     
  19. Downsville

    Downsville New Member

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    Hey Ray
    you said
    So in answer to your question there will be various bodily resurrections, but only one multiple billions and billions of saints who will ascend at the Rapture. [I Thess. 4:16]

    1Thes.4:16????

    1THES.4 15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1Thes.4 clouds - trumpet - voice
    Zeph 1 clouds - trumpet - voice

    ZEHP.1 [14] The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.[15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,[16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

    Well Ray, 1 Thes.4 is also the DAY of the Lord
     
  20. eschatologist

    eschatologist New Member

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    Ray Berrian

    I believe you may have underestimated just what I do know! You have addressed several eschatological points here so I will attempt to cover each one.

    First, In 2Peter 3:10 the Greek word for elements(stoicheia) is used in only two places in the New Testament, and that being in Galatians. It did not mean the 'earthly' elements, but it meant the elemental foundations of the Jewish law(system).

    So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles(stoicheia) of the world... But now that you know God-- or rather are known by God-- how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles(stoicheia)? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?(Gal.4:3,9)

    These examples are very clearly refering to the elements(principles) of the Jewish system(Law). So just as Peter had earlier stated that "the end of all things is near"(1Pet.4:7), so I believe that the ending to which he refered to that was "near" was the very ending and removal of this Jewish system. And yes it was destroyed in a fiery event, as their city, temple, documents and system met its end by the onslaught of the Roman armies, which by the way was completely destroyed with fire. Just read some of Josephus' writings concerning this event. And this destruction was prepared by God(Rom.9:22,28). Micah in his propheies about the Assyrian invasion and destruction of Israel used similar mountain melting language. Surely this was not meant to be taken literary! You can also find this similar language in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel and Zephaniah. If you would like I will later roll out verses in these books which clearly use this apocayptic(stars falling, sun darkening, earthquakes, etc.) imagery in terms as 'Day of the Lord,' for which its fulfillment resulted in the destruction of nations by the Assyrians, Babylonians, or the Medes and Perians. If someone would interpret these to be planet and universe ending events, then you would have to believe that God had to re-create the elements several times over!!!

    Second, your reference to the "last days." There must have been several verse in scripture that have eluded your understanding. I will address some of these, then you tell me as to when the Apostles and 1st century christians believed it would occur:

    In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in THESE LAST DAYS he HAS SPOKEN to us BY HIS SON, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe(Heb.1:1,2; emphasis mine).

    You gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days(Jam.5:3).

    who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of salvation that is READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME... He was chosen before the creation of the world, but WAS REVEALED IN THESE LAST TIMES FOR YOUR SAKE(1Pet.1:5,20).

    Dear children, THIS IS THE LAST HOUR: and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know IT IS THE LAST HOUR(1Jo.2:18).

    In the last days, God says,I will pour out my Spirit on all people...(Acts 2:17a).

    In every one of these accounts it is apparent that the time in which they spoke of the "Last Days" were in their own time. And these verses tie in to the other New Testament passages like thread in a garment. What I would love to see is what your interpretation of these might be. As for other eschatological subjects, I would love to discuss them with you in the future.
     
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