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The Gathering of the Church/the Rapture

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ray Berrian, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    That is where IMHO
    the Tribulation Period Judgement belongs
    in God's plan for the ages. This purpose of
    God necessitates that the Christians be
    taken out of the Earth before the Tribulation
    Period Judgement starts.

    I've talked to three or four Messianic Jews
    who beleive this verse:

    Luke 21:24 (NLT):

    They will be brutally killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be conquered and trampled down by the Gentiles until the age of the Gentiles comes to an end.

    The Messianic Jews (Jews who beleive that
    Jesus is their Messiah) believe this verse and
    others teach that when the last gentile that
    is going to get saved is saved, then
    The Lord will come get the Gentile Age
    Christians in the pretibulation rapture/resurrection
    and the time when Gentiles can be
    saved will come to an end. Then God
    can work on His Chosen People: Yisrael.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Downsville,

    You said, 'Dont you believe that God is able to protect His people not only through the
    tribulation but also when He pours out His indignation and wrath in the Day of His fierce anger?'

    First, there are thousands of Christian who are going through 'tribulation' right now as we both have expressed. This, however, is not the Great Tribulation era, future that God is speaking about. [Matt. 24:21 & Rev. 7:14] Pastor Edwards I believe mentioned this previously.

    The Lord can do anything He desires, if it is within His Divine nature to do so. But Christians will be in Heaven during the Great Tribulation, while sinners will suffer for their rebellion against the Lord God, the Supreme First Cause of all the earth and universe. We are not talking about some flesh and blood leader like Sadaam.

    The Apostle John calls attention to the 'great multitude, which no man could number of ALL nations, which would include the USA.' [Revelation 7:9-14 & 13:15] Many Israelites in the first 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation before the antichrist starts his beheading [20:4] will accept him as their Messiah, until in the last half of the seven years when he kills Jews and Gentiles around the world, who refuse his mark. [13:16]

    The unsaved Israelites will accept Christ as the Second Coming of Christ [1:7]
     
  3. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Eschatologist:
    I appreciate your posts. And all the peoeple said Amen!
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Rev 3
    10 "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. And even pre-Cross the John 14 promise is that Christ GOES and prepares a place in heaven - then COMEs to gather His saints (both the living and the dead) and take them to be WITH HIM where He now IS.

    Correct again. This shows that Christ raptures the church up into the air - ALL the saints - both the living and the dead - and takes us all back to heaven - to the place He has prepared for us.

    A number of post trib rapture views exist.

    The one I hold to says that at the return of Christ - He appears in the heavens and takes the saints to heaven as the John 14 promise shows. (This is what we call the 2nd coming)

    True enough! Only the saints, only those saved, only those who are dead in Christ ("Christ" is the Greek term for the the Hebrew - "Messiah")

    It is true that the wicked are raised at the end of the 1000 years and that during that 1000 years Christ reigns with His saints.

    But since the 1Thess 4 event is the resurrection of the righteous saints that we see in Rev 20:4-5, then there is 1000 years between that "Taking-us-home" event and the resurrection of the Wicked.

    And that is where we differ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Bob Ryan,

    Your verse ten in Revelation chapter three is interesting. I believe the full thought pattern begins with verse seven and ends when John completes verse twelve. This message was to the Church at Philadelphia.

    Surely we gain strength and insights on how to better love and serve the Lord as we read about all seven churches. I believe the last church that the Apostle John encouraged was the Church at Laodicea, as we close out chapter three.

    Bible students need to keep in mind that Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and that the Book of Revelation was not completely written by John the Apostle until 95 A.D. under the reign of Domitian.

    I guess my point is that the judgments of God in the form of Seals, Trumpets, Vials and so on will be ministered by a vengeful God yet in the future.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Rev 3:10 was far in the future to John's day. My point was simply that keeping them "from the hour of temptation" is similar to the John 17 idea of the Father keeping the saints from the evil one.

    Neither of these teachings on "keeping the saints" requires that they "be gone from the earth".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    I realize that the earliest of church fathers do not have the Divine authority as does the Word of God the Bible.

    'Irenaeus, was a Christian writer whose life spanned most of the second century after Christ. (A.D. 120-202). He studied the Gospels under Polycarp, who was a disciple of the Apostle John. Irenaeus also refers to this Antichrist sitting in the rebuilt "Temple in Jerusalem." He says, 'in which Temple the enemy shall sit . . . ' Irenaeus expected the final Seventieth Week to be fulfilled at the end of this age by a seven-year treaty leading to the return of Christ. Recently, Kingdom Now and Dominion Theology has revived the old Preterist Theory which claims Revelation's prophecies were written about A.D. 66 and were completely fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. This theory is bogas because Irenaeus wrote this message about the Antichrist in the Book of Revelation, who would sit in Jerusalem in the Temple.' [II Thess. 2:3-4] ---{end quote}

    While Josephus wrote about localized terror here and there. But, the Bible says that when the Great Tribulation [Rev. 7:14] does arrive it will be worse than this old world has ever seen. If we are in the Great Tribulation period or the Kingdom Age already, then where are all of this well defined Seal, Trumpet and Vial judgments? And our Lord has not come back to in the Rapture that takes place in the air [I Thess. 4:17] or at the Second Coming of Christ to earth. [Rev. 19:11]

    Jesus gave the truth to the Apostle John in the Book of Revelation. John taught it to Polycarp and Polycarp instructed Irenaeus the truth about all the future Divine judgments starting in chapter six through chapter nineteen.

    Soon after Irenaeus the church began to apostacize but there always have been students of the Word who believed in the truth just as it was written in the Book of Revelation.

    At the time of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther points back to Jerome who believed in a future Antichrist, the Great Tribulation and the premillennial return of Christ. Luther concluded from his study of Psalm 90 that the Lord would return to establish His Kingdom reign on earth at the end of the six thousand years from Adam's creation in the Garden.
     
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Bob Ryan,

    I believe that John meant in both passages that the Lord is able to save and keep His people from sinning while we are here on God's earth. We are to strive to be holy as our Lord is holy.

    You said, 'I agree that Rev 3:10 was far in the future to John's day. My point was
    simply that keeping them "from the hour of temptation" is similar to the
    John 17 idea of the Father keeping the saints from the evil one.

    Neither of these teachings on "keeping the saints" requires that they "be
    gone from the earth".'

    You are correct again.

    Ray
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This appears to be a reference his view on 2Thess 2 - right?

    Do you have a quote for that?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The great tribulation is fulfilled in the dark ages. (certainly nothing will surpass that extermination of millions of Christians in centuries long persecution in terms of time)

    But that does not preclude an intense persecution at the end of time.

    The trumpets and seals - are simply views in history from John's day to the second coming.

    The vials are yet to come - they follow the last great tribulation (shorter than the dark ages).

    True - He has not returned. But on His return he will appear as is described in Rev 19 and will take the saints as we see in 1Thess 4 and the resurrection of the saints is described both by Paul (in 1Thess 4) and by John (in Rev 20:4-5) --

    Luther is essentially correct - however I believe that even he viewed the persecution of the saints at that time as constituting the great tribulation.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

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  13. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

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    "I will be with you always, even unto the end of the age." -Jesus

    Ray, with respect, you don't seem to believe Jesus' promise.

    Also, are you saying an apostate Church selected the New Testament canon and created the Nicene Creed???
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Sorry, but 60% of the Christian
    martyrs were killed in the 20th Century
    (mostly by Russian and Chineese communists).

    Jesus says in Matthew 24:21-22 (ASV):

    21 "For then there will be a great
    tribulation, such as has not occurred since
    the beginning of the world until now,
    nor ever will.

    22 "Unless those days had been cut
    short, no life would have been saved;
    but for the sake of the elect
    those days will be cut short.

    After 1965 even man can do worse tribulation
    than ever the middle ages thought of.
    We have the ability to purge the whole
    surface of the earth of all life.

    Is killing 6 million Jews in
    the 1940s not bad? -- The Great Tribulation
    will be worse. Is the plague in the 1300s
    that killed 25 million (1/4 the population)
    of Europe not bad? -- The Great Tribulation
    will be worse.

    I used to think that God needed to interfer
    in the affairs of mankind to punish mankind.
    I now see that God has to interfer in the affairs of mankind to save mankind from
    himself.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Ed Edwards,

    I agree with you and Messianic Christians who believe what Jesus said in Luke 21:20-28. In verse 23 our Lord speaks of ' . . . the land.'

    The Prophet Ezekiel speaks of 'the land' more than many times. 33:2; 34:13,25,27,28; 36:5,8,12,20,24,28,35; 37:22a] There is no question that Jesus is speaking of Israel.

    Romans 11:25 speaks also of a time when the last Gentile sinner will come into the faith. Then, ' . . . all Israel shall be saved.' [vs. 26] 'God is able to graff them in again.' [vs. 23c,d]
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Events in the 20th century have been "bad" but killing 50 million Christians over a period of 6+ centuries - and bringing down the "dark ages" on the civilized world for dark-century after dark-century -- is not easily "upstaged" -- 6 million Jews or not.

    The other thing to consider is that if the church of John's day and Matthew's day were reading those texts about tribulation and ALSOL having the view that Christians would NOT go through the Tribulation - WOULD they REALLY translate "missing the tribulation" as

    "Lets see - this means that the Christians will be slaughtered to the tune of 50 million over a period of 12+ centuries)

    When you see what Pagan and Papal Rome did to Christians over that vast period of time - you can not possibly view that as "missing out on tribulation". Indeed false expectations would have been crushed early in those centuries of darkness and death for true Christians.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "I will be with you always, even unto the end of the age." -Jesus

    Ray, with respect, you don't seem to believe Jesus' promise.

    Also, are you saying an apostate Church selected the New Testament canon and created the Nicene Creed???
    </font>[/QUOTE]#1. The NT was written and completed and read by the saints in the first century AD. That was BEFORE the errors that formed the Catholic Church came into being.

    #2. The errors that infested the church "From within" were as Paul predicted in Acts 20.

    #3. The apostacy in the church was as Paul predicted in 2Thess 2 - that falling away from the truth of a historic nature that was future to his day.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    My source shows loss to martyrdom
    of the Catholics 33AD-1990AD - 7 Million
    My source shows loss to martyrdom
    to the Catholics 33AD-1990AD - 4.5 Million

    What was the approximate population of
    the earth in 500AD?
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Lets see 25 million lost in the plague alone. Yet others "suppose" that there were not enough people in Europe to kill in such a short period of time. ... and yet.

    Notice the loss of life at the fall of Jerusalem "alone" near the end of the first century. That did not even take 40 years - and was confined to a very small area of land - and yet huge loss of life.

    At the end of the 1700's the earth had already reached its first 1 billion population milestone.

    Having centuries long "exterminations" by the RCC and by pagan Rome - was more than enough.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    My figures show 8,286 million called "Christian"
    total 33AD-1990AD.

    You have said 50 Million in 600 years.
    YOu have said 50 Million in 12 centuries.
    My figures show about 42 million martyrs
    in the years 33AD to 1990AD.

    Anyway, 50 million out of 8,286 million
    is 6/10 of 1%.
     
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