The Gathering of the Church/the Rapture

30 million, 40 million, 50 million before you know it you start to get into some real "tribulation numbers".

 

Right now i believe 400 Million would go
in a pretribulation rapture.

or if the 400 million go into a Tribulation,
then 398 million of them will be granted
the spiritual guift of martyrdom and the
crown that goes with it.

 

If we were fortunate enough to have 400,000,000 saints alive today - then surely it would be tragic to lose them all in the tribulation.

However the tribulation that is still future is not a time for killing all the saints this time around.

The one in the dark ages - lasting for centuries and killing maybe 50 million was of that nature. The next one is different.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I respectfully disagree. You aren't thinking
of the Lord protecting these folk in
the wilderness (Revelation 12:6), are you?
There will be an elect saint-filled church
protected in the wilderness during the
great tribulation period, but it will not
be the 400 Million mostly gentile church
that gets protected in the wilderness
but perhaps an 8 Million strong
Jewish/Israeli elect saint-filled church.

 

The 1260 years of persecution identified in Rev 12 was the dark ages. It followed the resurrection of Christ and started with pagan persecution and then went to papal persecution of the saints. It is too late to get the Christian Church out of that persecution and had the Christians of that day been "thinking" that the tribulation to follow the resurrection of Christ was not coming upon them - they would have been sadly misinformed.

When I speak of future tribulation - I am speaking of the problem of 2Thess 2 and of Rev 16 - a time future to our day.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Church one day will be raised from the dead. [I Corinthians 15; I Thess. 4:16 Rev 20:4-5]

And it is "That day" upon which all NT saints were to "fix their hope completely" according to 1 Peter 1:13 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

This is the great event given to us in amazing detail in Rev 19 and 20. Two chapters dedicated to the "focus event" of the entire Church.

And John makes it very clear the resurrection of the saints is "The First Resurrection" - the one upon which the entire church fixes its hope "completely" according to Peter.

We comfort one another with the truth about that singular event - the "First Resurrection".

In Christ,

Bob

 

There is nothing singualr
about the first resurrection.

1. There is nothing about "first" that
implies "one and only one". This is a fact,
not an opinion.

2. So, I have the opinion that there
is nothing in Revelation 20 that
precludes more than one resurrection of
the just. (there is a resurrection of the
unjust 1,000 years after the Second Advent).

3. Revelation 20:4 speaks of two different,
unique, singualar sets of persons:

NLT is scripture reference for Reve. 20:4

1) Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge.

Major level "And"

2) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus, for proclaiming the word of God. And (secondary level "and") I saw the souls of those who had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands.

Group 1 are those selected:
FROM those resurrected/raptured before
the Tribulation Period
SELECTED FOR special service to Jesus
during the physical Millinnial Kingdom of
Jesus.

Group 2 are the Tribulation Period saints.

Group 1 people were raptured/resurrected
before the Tribulation Period;
Group 2 people were resurrected
after the Tribulation Period.
Both were resurrected in the first
resurrection TYPE the resurrection of the
just.

 

Peter says "Fix your hope completely" on the event that reveals Christ. The resurrection of the saints is in fact a "singular event".

According to Rev 20:4-5 the FIRST resurrection is that of the saints. The second resurrection happens 1000 years after that according to the text - but that is confined to the Wicked - according to the Word of God.

So "yes" there is more than 1. In fact there are "two".

One of the righteous - and one of the wicked.

Correct. Two groups of people and two resurrections.

The righteous raised in the first resurrection.

The wicked rased in the 2nd resurrection.

Note ---

In Christ,

Bob

 

The tribulation that follows the resurrection of Christ - as we see in Rev 12 - is the Dark Ages.

And - it came in as predicted.

In the same way - the great tribulation of Matt 24 that follows the destruction of Jerusalem when the Roman armies surrounded the city - was that of the dark ages. Again - the exact sequence with the slaughter of millions of Christians over a period of centuries.

The historic and significant time of persecution predicted by God's Word.

In Christ,

Bob

 

AMen, Brother BobBryan -- Preach it!

What i'm saying is that this does NOT peclude
more than one resurrection of the saints.
There is nothing about "FIRST" that makes
it ONE AND ONLY ONE. "One" and "first" are
two different words, with diffeent sets
of meaning. This is a fact, not an opinion.

I know logically that "not precluding multiple"
is not the same as "is multiple".
But I can show there are multiple resurrections
of the saints (I prefer "just") from the Bible,
when you are ready. First you have
to find out what "first" means.

I have a college degree. But first i
completed the 12th grade in grammer school.
But first i completed the 11th grade.
Here there is a certain twoness in "first".
In fact, there is a 12ness in "first" for
i can say the same stuff all the way back
to. Here in revelation 20 "first resurrection"
is about the first sort, type, kind of
resurreciton: the resurreciton of the
just (or as you say, the saints. Recall
that a person's justness is of Jesus,
just the way their saintness is of Jesus.)

 

I agree - two resurrections according To Rev 20. And they are 1000 years apart.

The "first resurrection" is of the righteous.

the "second" is of the wicked.

Notice it does not say "the first SET of resurrections" as if they are popping off over a period of centuries.

Notice that in 1Thess 4 the resurrection of the righteous - is seen as a singular event where Christ descends with a shout with the loud trumpet call of the archangel and the dead in christ rise.

This is the view of the resurrection of the righteous described by Paul - and again by John in Rev 20 as "the First Resurrection" not the first "grouping of resurrection events" as some seem to "need".

In Christ,

Bob

 

The word "second" is not
used here in Revelation. It is implied, it
is not wrong, it is NOT mentioned.

Likewise Revelation 20 does not PROVE
that there is one and only one resurrection
of the saints. "First" certainly does not
prove one and only one. Go elsewhere
and prove there is one and only one
resurrection of the saints.

Remember that Daniel 12:2 shows
one resurrection PERIOD. Revelation 20
shows at least two resurrections:
one of the just one of the unjust.

 

There is the righteous in the "First resurrection" but you claim that more are there to be raised and more resurrections are needed.

Good point.

"The REST of the dead did NOT come to life UNTIL the 1000 years were completed".

Seems pretty obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 10 Jan 2004;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

The resurrection of Jarius' daughter,
the resurrection of Jesus, the resurrecdtion of Lazarus...

Were all prior to the future resurrection of Rev 20.

Rev 20 is in the context of the visible appearance of Christ in Rev 19 at the 2nd coming.

It is there that we see the First Resurrection - at the future time.

And what about all those that do not come to life in that ONE event? What happens to the "rest"??

Good question..

"The REST of the dead did not come to life UNTIL after the 1000 years were completed".

Obviously John sees the future visible appearance of Christ - future to his day. The 2nd coming of Rev 19.

And this is fixed as the time of the Rev 20:4 "First Resurrection" which is the resurrection of those that Rev 20:4-5 calls the "Blessed and holy" over whom the 2nd death has no power.

In 1Cor 15 and in 1Thess 4 Paul points forward to that SAME resurrection.

And why not - according to 1Cor 15 and Romans 8 and 2Cor 5 it is the "focus" of the church.

Yet the first resurrection does not include ALL the dead and the text tells us that "The REST of the dead do not come to life UNTIL the 1000 years are completed"

In Christ,

Bob

 

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Matthew 24:31-44)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

The harvest model is mentioned by Jesus.
We are usually far away from the harvest,
because we have plenty to eat. No so
in the time of Jesus. Every possible
etable portion was used.
The first fruits were the first part
of the harvest, when some plants
in favorable places were ready to harvest
first.
The main harvest is when most of the crop
was harvested. The gleanings were one of two
things
1) the plants at the edges (Jewish law had
this reserved for the working poor)

2) a later harvest, in good years there might
be a second or maybe even a third harvest
from the same plants

So i envision here as far as resurrections
and raptures go, that there will
be a rapture/resurreciton at the beginning
of the Tribualtion period and another
at the end.

Elsewhere i've shown there may be as many
as 400 Million raptured (there may be
some 1,000 Million resurrected at the
main harvest. After the tribulation period
is another rapture/resurrection.
In my pretribualtiop scenario there may be
20,000 raptured and 22 million resurrected.

In the postribulation only scenario there
would be perhaps 20,000 raptured and
1,400 Million resurrected.
But i'm not hoping that scenario is correct.