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The Gipper shoulda stuck to football...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by robycop3, Jul 30, 2004.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I know Dr. Sam Gipp prolly isn't related at all to George Gipp of Notre Dame fame, but I thought I'd get your full attention with that title!

    Dr. Gipp, a rabid KJVO, has written a book called the Answer Book, as I'm sure you're all aware. recently, a KJVO on another board tried to defend the rendering "Easter" in Acts 12:4 with The Gipper's Isn't "Easter" in Acts 12:4 a mistranslation? thread from that book. Here's my rebuttal to that person and to Dr. Gipp's "facts":

    ____________________________________________

    Let's tear apart The Gipper's "research" right now with some FACTS. The Gipper has an agenda to push, and some books to sell, & he doesn't mind embellishing his "facts" with imagination to make either point.

    Feel free to look up the facts I'm presenting in any reputable reference book on earth. In fact, I encourage you to do so since I'm an unknown & you don't have any reason to believe me.

    First, Gipp says,"Coming to the word "Easter" in God's authorized Bible,

    The AV was authorized by KING JAMES. Nowhere does it say GOD authorized it. So Gipp's misleading people from the gitgo.

    Dr. Gipp:It must also be noted that whenever the passover is mentioned in the N.T., the reference is always to the meal, to be eaten on the night of April 14th not the entire week. The days of unleavened bread are NEVER referred to as the passover. (It must be remembered that the angel of the Lord passed over Egypt on one night, not seven nights in a row.)

    THIS IS GROSSLY INCORRECT! THE GIPPER COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I shall PROVE it to you, straight from the KJV!

    John 18:28, KJV - "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might EAT THE PASSOVER."

    Now, we know Jesus had eaten the paschal lamb w/his disciples THE PREVIOUS EVENING, as the law required - AS EVERY OTHER JEW HAD DONE! There weren't TWO paschal meals, so John can ONLY be referring to a meal with unleavened bread which was part of the Passover observance.

    JUST ASK ANY RABBI or other person knowledgeable about Judaism if the WHOLE WEEK is called Passover or not!

    Who do you believe? - Gipp?....or SCRIPTURE.......along with those to whom God gave the Passover?

    This alone proves The Gipper's "research" wrong. But let's look deeper.

    Dr. Gipp:But the pagan holiday of Easter was just a few days away. Remember! Herod was a pagan Roman who worshipped the "queen of heaven." He was NOT a Jew. He had no reason to keep the Jewish passover. Some might argue that he wanted to wait until after the passover for fear of upsetting the Jews. There are two grievous faults in this line of thinkings.

    Yes, there ARE two grievous lines of thinking here-AND GIPP IS THE "THINKER" OF BOTH OF THEM!

    First, the Easter observance did not exist in Herod's time. You may read any encyclopedia, Jewish history, or other reference book you wish, and you will NOT find any observance of Easter in that part of the world at that time! Go ahead...Try to find any!

    Again...If there were some pagan rite called Easter being observed in that time/place, Luke certainly would NOT have called it pascha!

    The line of Herods began with Antipater, a friend of Julius Caesar, of Babylonian or possibly of Idumean(Edomite) descent. His grandson was Herod the Great, the one who sought Jesus' life. He wisely persuaded Augustus Caesar to grant the Jews freedom from the state religion, thus pleasing the Jews greatly enough that they overlooked some of his "little murders" of Jews-and pleased Augustus, who didn't hafta worry about any rebellion in the district. To further please the Jews, he had the temple rebuilt into the most magnificent structure in Jerusalem, & reinstated the Sanhedrin(thus relieving himself of the everyday ruling duties)...and it worked! The Jews obeyed him & paid their taxes without much dissent!

    However, Herod became a madman, murdering most of his own family, including a son named Aristobulus. This was of little concern to the Jews, however. And...during this time he'd caused the Temple heirarchy to become very corrupt, leading to their having the Romans crucify Jesus.

    His son Archelaus was detested by the Jews, & Augustus replaced him with his brother Herod Antipas, the Herod who executed John The Baptist, and was called "that fox" by Jesus. Antipas was banished in 39 AD by Caligula, who replaced him with Aristobulus' son Herod Agrippa I.

    This is the Herod who slew James & arrested Peter! And by every account, especially by that of Josephus, he sought to PLEASE THE JEWS, especially the popular but corrupt temple leadership, the Sanhedrin, and the Pharisees. If this man practiced anything but the state religion of the worship of Caesar, it would've been the worship of the Hellenistic pantheon of gods...but he was well-acquainted with the Jewish law! He absolutely did NOT observe any pagan nor Christian holy days, as this would've destroyed his popularity with the Jews. You may search any library on earth to try to prove this wrong!

    He was the same Herod smitten by God with worms in his innards, killing him in 44 AD, age 54, in the 7th year of his reign.

    Sometimes scripture calls him Herod; at other places it calls him Agrippa - but there's no doubt of his identity.

    His son Herod Agrippa II was the Agrippa before whom Paul appeared.

    Thus, you see once again how faulty Gipp's "research" is!

    Dr. Gipp:First,Peter was no longer considered a Jew. He had repudiated Judaism. The Jews would have no reason to be upset by Herod's actions.

    Totally irrelevant! In fact, the Jews had to have been pleased, although Scripture doesn't mention it.

    The Jewish leadership DETESTED Christians! They considered Peter one of the worst HERETICS of all time! Only Roman rule prevented their killing him sooner! (The Romans had cracked down after Stephen was killed without a trial)

    If Herod had simply whacked Peter as he'd done James, the Jewish religious leaders would've been pleased. But Herod wanted THEM to do it, for their greater satisfaction. But the Jews themselves would NOT have fooled with Peter during Passover.

    Dr. Gipp:Second, he could not have been waiting until after the Passover because he thought the Jews would not kill a man during a religious holiday. They had killed Jesus during passover (Matt. 26:17-19, 47). They were also excited about Herod's murder of James. Anyone knows that a mob possesses the courage to do violent acts during religious festivities, not after.

    Totally irrelevant. Jesus was crucified at the instigation of the Jewish religious leadership, BUT BY THE ROMANS,while Herod killed James by his own will. He wanted to deliver Peter to the Jews, for them to do with as they wished, while it was the Jews who delivered Jesus to the Romans & had them crucify Him.(They did NOT kill Him; He gave up His life of his own accord when all had been fulfilled. Thus, no one person or group can be "blamed" for Jesus' death, but certainly for trying to kill Him.)

    Dr.Gipp:The days of unleavened bread would end on the 21 st of April. Shortly after that would come Herod's celebration of pagan Easter. Herod had not killed Peter during the days of unleavneed bread simply because he wanted to wait until EAster.

    There's not one scintilla of Scriptural or historical evidence that this Herod observed ANYTHING called Easter! If he followed the hellenistic religion, any worship of Venus would've been the worship of PALLAS ATHENE! And, search as you may, you will NOT find any evidence that Asherah/ Ishtar was worshipped anywhere in that time and place!

    Anyone not believing what I've written here, please check it out for yourself before you dismiss my writing as incorrect. You may start by reading Flavius Josephus' accounts of the Herod dynasty, from where I obtained much of my info. Unlike The Gipper, I deal in FACT!
     
    #1 robycop3, Jul 30, 2004
  2. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    I am happy for not being a Gippite. :D
     
    #2 Askjo, Jul 30, 2004
  3. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim New Member

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    Good rebuttals Roby the guy doesn't have a leg to stand on.(or a body for that matter) [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #3 DeclareHim, Jul 30, 2004
  4. Slambo

    Slambo New Member

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    Robycop3--man of La Mancha said:

    Well I dont! Why is it the The Tyndale 1525, Bishop’s Bible 1568, Coverdale 1535, Matthew’s, Cranmer, the Great Bible,The Geneva,Mace's New Testament 1729, and the Luther Bible translated it Easter? And all of those Bibles come from the same source!!


    Your dismissed!

    I will put the Bible over a man that sided with the Roman empire against his own people!


    Look out! I think that windmill still moving!!!!!!
     
    #4 Slambo, Jul 30, 2004
  5. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Hit-N-Run Slambo:Well I dont! Why is it the The Tyndale 1525, Bishop?s Bible 1568, Coverdale 1535, Matthew?s, Cranmer, the Great Bible,The Geneva,Mace's New Testament 1729, and the Luther Bible translated it Easter? And all of those Bibles come from the same source!!

    Wrong is wrong, even if it appears in the King George Bible.

    I will put the Bible over a man that sided with the Roman empire against his own people!

    BUT...The bible doesn't give a history of the Herod dynasty, while Josephus does. Traitor or not, even other Jewish historians have found his writings accurate. And this has nothing to do with what Herod did. The point is, Dr. Gipp & the translators who rendered pascha as Easter in Acts 12:4 were wrong. I see you don't wanna touch on that fact, nor the rebuttal of Gipp's booboos.
     
    #5 robycop3, Jul 30, 2004
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Funny...when we PROVE some KJVO hooey wrong, USING THE KJV ITSELF, the KJVOs stay away in droves.

    They'll use the excuse that the "Easter" thing has been discussed all the way to the moon, but the subject here is the innaccuracy of a prominent KJVO author. Plainly, The Gipper blew it!
     
    #6 robycop3, Jul 30, 2004
  7. Slambo

    Slambo New Member

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    Roby Quixote posted:
    And Easter has been proven to be accurate!

    Your problem is a hidden agenda(fueled by pre-concieved notions)against the KJV,and a complete self inflicted ignorance of scripture and history.Why not contact Dr.Gipp and set em straight? Fraid?
     
    #7 Slambo, Jul 30, 2004
  8. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Amen! Preach it! [​IMG]
     
    #8 Askjo, Jul 30, 2004
  9. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Slambo opined:

    "And Easter has been proven to be accurate!"

    How so?
     
    #9 rsr, Jul 30, 2004
  10. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    The AV was authorized by KING JAMES. Nowhere does it say GOD authorized it. So Gipp's misleading people from the gitgo.
    --------------------------------------------------

    This is an assumption. The King James Bible had always been refered to as the The Holy Bible or Authorized Version of the Holy Bible, and you can ask GrannyGumbo about this. You can ask many of the elder people you know and they will tell you. Referring to the AV or Holy Bible as KJB has been a recent label attached to it. His using this term is not misleading in the least, as you claim.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #10 michelle, Jul 31, 2004
  11. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------

    John 18:28, KJV - "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might EAT THE PASSOVER."

    Now, we know Jesus had eaten the paschal lamb w/his disciples THE PREVIOUS EVENING, as the law required - AS EVERY OTHER JEW HAD DONE! There weren't TWO paschal meals, so John can ONLY be referring to a meal with unleavened bread which was part of the Passover observance.
    --------------------------------------------------

    The previous night was the Last Supper, and the Passover, or the Pashal Lamb was Jesus Christ on the day of his crucifiction, to which is the exact timing/day of when this verse of scripture takes place. John 18: 28 is the day of the crucifiction! Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb. The days of unleavened bread, started the following day, continuing for 7 days.

    Leviticus 23

    4. These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
    5. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
    6. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
    7. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
    8. But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

    Now take notice of this, the cock crew, and then they led Jesus from Ciaphas to the hall of judgement. The cock crows in the morning, and it was the following day, to which was the day of the Lord's Passover, His Crucifiction:

    John 18
    26. One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?
    27. Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
    28. Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #11 michelle, Jul 31, 2004
  12. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    First, the Easter observance did not exist in Herod's time. You may read any encyclopedia, Jewish history, or other reference book you wish, and you will NOT find any observance of Easter in that part of the world at that time! Go ahead...Try to find any!
    --------------------------------------------------

    Actually there was, as the Chaldeans goddess Astarte, to which was one of the titles to Beltis, the Queen of Heaven. Her name in Ninevah was Ishtar (to which is pronounced as Easter) and this is where the name Easter comes from, as well as all the festivities of it. This pagan goddess was worshipped in April which occured around the days of the Jewish Passover.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #12 michelle, Jul 31, 2004
  13. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    He absolutely did NOT observe any pagan nor Christian holy days, as this would've destroyed his popularity with the Jews. You may search any library on earth to try to prove this wrong!

    --------------------------------------------------

    This is an assumption and not a fact that you can prove. The church in Jerusalem would have celebrated the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ to which is observed after the day of passover. You stated yourself, that the Sanhedrin had become corrupt. They were against christianity, but NOT against the pagan religions. This was the problem of the Jewish people throughout their entire history in the OT. It was most likely that the jews had no choice in the matter, as Rome was the official government in those times, and there were many Roman soldiers and their families living in Israel, and would have been allowed to, no doubt celebrate and would have celebrated their pagan festivals.

    Acts 12

    (notice vs. 4, and mentions both Easter and the soldiers in this very verse)

    1. Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
    2. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
    3. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
    4. And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

    It makes sense that Herod, trying to please all, including his own religion, would have appeased the jews by persecuting and killing the jewish believers (as even the scriptures have told us). This appeased them fine, I am sure. These believers in Jesus, were thier fellow bretheren who they thought betrayed their God and religion, and they hated them. This comes straight from even jewish people today, when they talk about the apostle Paul - they hate him. They have no hatred toward the muslim or the pagans as they do their own people who believe in Jesus Christ. This is a fact.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #13 michelle, Jul 31, 2004
  14. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Wrong is wrong, even if it appears in the King George Bible.

    --------------------------------------------------

    The word Easter, in Acts 12, in Gods holy word is correct. God has said so throughout the generations of the churches, and in the scriptures right before your very eyes. Why are you so trying to futilly find error in God's words? You are not going to find it, because HE has provided them perfectly for us. It is so sad that you doubt this.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #14 michelle, Jul 31, 2004
  15. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    The church in Jerusalem would have celebrated the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ to which is observed after the day of passover.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Oops! I made a typo booboos.

    This should be said: The church in Jerusalem would have celebrated the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ to which is observed 3 days after the day of passover.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #15 michelle, Jul 31, 2004
  16. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Dr. Gipp:First,Peter was no longer considered a Jew. He had repudiated Judaism. The Jews would have no reason to be upset by Herod's actions.

    Totally irrelevant! In fact, the Jews had to have been pleased, although Scripture doesn't mention it.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Read Gipp's quote closer. Do you see?

    Gipp quote:

    "The Jews would have no reason to be upset by Herod's actions."


    Same thing as what you have said:


    "...the Jews had to have been pleased,.."


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #16 michelle, Jul 31, 2004
  17. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    The KJV NT uses the word "Easter" one time. And it is the exact Grrek word rendered as "Passover" every other time.

    Thus, how did the KJV translators know that on this one occasion "Easter" didn't mean "Passover?"
     
    #17 rsr, Jul 31, 2004
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Advanced Revelation...

    There is nothing you can do or say.
    This is what the KJVO and KJVO wanabees believe.

    Some KJVO (wanabees) distance themselves from this man but in my opinion it is obvious that when they defend "easter" in Acts 12:4 they are his disciples.

    And that is their unalienable right (at least here in America).

    HankD
     
    #18 HankD, Jul 31, 2004
  19. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    There is nothing you can do or say.
    This is what the KJVO and KJVO wanabees believe.

    --------------------------------------------------

    I don't say this and NEVER have because I do not believe this. I believe the words of the Lord have ALWAYS BEEN in his control and providance, and ALWAYS WILL. As to HOW this was done, I don't know. Who can know the mind and ways of the Lord? What I do know, is the the faithful have ALWAYS known this to be Easter, not passover, and this is because the scriptures even SHOW us that this is so.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
    #19 michelle, Jul 31, 2004
  20. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    That's what I thought.

    — Matthew Henry's commentary on Acts 12:4

    — John Gill's Exposition on the Entire Bible

    The KJV translators did not mistranslate in this instance (Easter and Passover were commonly interchanged during the period), but there is no reasonable explanation as to why they did it; and it certainly is not an appropriate translation today.

    But you really don't care, I suppose.
     
    #20 rsr, Jul 31, 2004
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