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The God Man

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you that "only begotten" has a meaning of it's own. Therefore let's look at Matt. 1:20 mainly that in bold.
    But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
    Conceived γεννηθὲν, 1 occurrence to be begotten
    Greek Interlinear Bible (NT) Scripture4all.org translates as, in her being generated
    Westcott & Hort: therefore in, into it (her) having been generated unto

    What does being generated mean in biblical language?

    Also using this understanding, "Well, if you start with an understanding of an eternally existing trinity God," exactly whom of the eternally existing trinity God is doing this generating from the passage above?

    Jesus asked interesting questions.
    Saying, What think ye of the Christ? whose son is he?
    If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    Are these questions relative to "only begotten"?
    Is the Christ the seed of Abraham?
    Was the Christ begotten as in generated by God?
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

    Christians are called children of God, begotten of God but not begotten through a woman as was Jesus. How are we begotten of God?
     
  2. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Being I believe this to be relative to the title of the OP "The God Man" let me ask.

    Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    Does "by inheritance obtained" imply that at a specific moment in time he actually was given a name more excellent than the angels?
    What was that name?
    When was it given?
     
  3. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    I'm not trying to "figure out ways to make it seem incorrect." There is no

    What I'm asking is--since you did say you believe in an eternal trinity, and if we accept that one person of that trinity was called "the word" (Which I am not disputing, by the way)--Do you believe that the roles that applied during Jesus' earthly ministry--namely: Jesus does the father's will, The father sends the spirit, Jesus sends the spirit, the spirit Glorifies Jesus, The father raises Jesus so that every knee will bow TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.--Do these roles still apply, and will they apply for eternity, or was that Just a temporary expression of roles for a short time?

    The reason I ask is that some who do not hold to "eternal sonship" instead hold that all three persons of the trinity were equal in status & Role from eternity past, such that any one of them could have potentially become the son, Rather than one person of the trinity "sending" another one.

    What say you?
     
  4. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    Let me say right off again, that I'm having a very hard time following what you write. It's not clear to me whether you are disagreeing with something I have said, or if you did not understand what I wrote. I feel like you are asking the same questions we have already answered. It's just not clear what you are trying to say.

    That said, here's an attempt...

    "Generated" is not in biblical language. "Begotten" is, and generated may well be a definiton of begotten.

    Again, we've been through this already. The verse clearly says it is "of the Holy Spirit" so there is your answer.
    Jesus' questions were in response to those who did not believe him to be the son of God. Jesus also called himself the Son of man. It is emphasized that he is both the son of God and the rightful hier of Israel by his lineage from Abraham and David.

    Jesus is the seed of abraham, although there are places in the bible that also refer to us as "children of abraham." So it is used to refer to different things.

    On this, I think Paul's letters are helpful, in that they emphasize that we become children of God through faith in Christ, when we are ADOPTED into his families. We are adopted, God's spirit regenerates us (note the similarity with "Generates").
     
  5. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    1. The "name" is most likely not a specific name, but rather used here to refer to his fame or reputation. "A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches," that is, the Name of Jesus rose in fame and honor... Though this could also refer to the point in time when the name of Jesus, or the Son was first given.

    2. "When was it given?" While this verse in isolation might make us think that at one time Jesus was below the angels; I am convinced that the rest of scripture, including heb. 1:2, point to the fact that he was in fact always God, and therefore always above them.

    I believe it could be explained like this: Through out much of the OT, The 2nd person of the trinity took a behind-the-scenes role...so much so that the average Jew would probably have more knowledge of angels than he would about the trinity, and especially the 2nd person of it.
    However, in the NT with the incarnation, events are set in order by which Jesus humbled himself, and was then exalted to the highest place (phil 2:6-11), So that now there is no doubt about who is higher, Jesus or angels. By Hebrews, Jesus should clearly be considered far above angels, and the writer of hebrews is pointing this out. He now has a "name" more excellent than angels.
     
  6. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Well I believe God is eternal and that He (not they) is a trinity. However in all honesty I am not sure what that even means or is involved and the reason is that the bible does not spell it out. The bible does not break down the Godhead. Now I understand there is some very smart people who have figured it out or most of it even though we have very little revelation from God. In fact there are whole books written to explain it when we only have a very few verses. So I know they are very smart to be able to write an entire book on only a few verses, but for me I just have to rely on what is written.
    Scripture tells us is that the Word was made flesh. That much I know. We are told that a son will be given and His name will "be called" and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    With that I would ask is why we do not call this Son, Father? Are we failing there? If Jesus is the ever lasting Father then when He prayed to the Father how does that work?

    So you see there are many many questions we can ask. As to relationship of the Trinity within itself in eternity past I have no clue and neither does anyone else. In fact we do not even know clearly how it works today. We have very limited information and I would be hard pressed to give any kind of concrete answer outside of what is written.

    I will say this much. I think one problem is that we have in our thinking of God is we want to see Him as a person like we are persons. I think that clouds our understanding. Then when we think of the Trinity that idea carries over and we now have three persons and we are now really confused because we also say there is only one God.

    I think that God is so above our ability to even conceive what He is, while our meager minds tries to comprehend, all we do is muddy the waters. So is the Trinity all equal? That is like asking me is God equal with Himself? What we know is that the Son said the Father was greater then the Son. What that means I have no clue. Now I realize that some who are really smart have figured that out, but unless the bible tells me I am left with Deut. 29:29.
     
  7. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Think that Apostle John answered this clearly in His prologue...

    As he wrote his passage quite explicit in the Greek, that the Word was a seperate distinct being from the father, yet was also God!

    same is essense, whatever God was, jesus was, and both are part of the Godhead, as is the HS!
     
  8. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Then why is the son to be called the Father?
     
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    the Son was to called the father of Eternity, which was a hebrew way to state that he was to be considered God, as he would have been ever lasting/eternal...

    From eternity past, everlasting, was the Son, and he would be God, and called His titles...
     
  10. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    That is not what the passage says.
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
     
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    same passage, literally in the Hebrew text refers to one who is called :father of eternity" hebrew verbage to refer to one whose origin is from everlasting from eternity, another way to say is God!
     
  12. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    So you are saying the passage is repeating itself as it already said he will be called mighty God?
     
  13. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Can we look at it like this?

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,
    This is Jesus the Christ seed of Abraham, son of David conceived (begotten) of Spirit the God Holy in the virgin Mary whom she brought forth nine months later. A man child. Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; As stated above he died.

    Does "by inheritance obtained" imply that at a specific moment in time he actually was given a name more excellent than the angels?
    Obtained by inheritance = to receive at a given time. To receive a promise.
    Obtained a more excellent name:

    What was that name?
    Rom. 1:4 And declared the Son of God with power. Heb. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son.
    The more excellent name being the Son of God.

    When was it given?
    Rom. 1:4 And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
    Heb. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? Born thee.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. Isa. 66:7,8 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth (she,her?) be made to bring forth (give birth?) in one day?

    I believe this resurrected man child is the only begotten of the Father, Son of God. God the Son.

    To be children of Abraham one has to be Christ's, that is be in Christ.
     
    #53 percho, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2011
  14. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    ???????????????????????????????????
     
  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    God is always going to be the same. He will always be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    MB
     
  16. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Thank you for sharing that but that answer does not go with the question.
     
  17. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    When the Incarnation happened, God the Son became jesus, and he will always be the God/Man!

    Think that is because he will be showing off to all creation and beings what he did to bring slavation unto a lost and sinful race known as man!

    To bring glory to God...
     
  18. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    What made Him the Son in eternity past?
     
  19. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    God is father/Son/Holy Spirit 3 seperate "person" yet one is essense

    God the Son became Human Flesh, and was born as Jesus the Christ...

    jesus "God nature" was rom eternity, his Humanity at His conception/birth...
     
  20. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    That is one view but That does not answer what made Him the Son when the scripture says He will be called Father.
     
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