The GOD of Mercy!

I would rather believe in a God that will save MANY by His grace in Election

 

God wishes for all to be saved.
Satan wishes for all to go to hell with him.
We cast the tie-breaking vote.

The bible is chock full of instances where
people are given a choice to obey or to
disobey.

Look, if you're out in the freezing water flailing
away and dying out there and somebody comes
out to you in a lifeboat and offers you a hand,
YOU HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE! Take hold and
let him pull you in to safety or to reject said
help.

To me, that is free will. You take take the help
or you can die.

If man is totally depraved, someone please explain
Romans 2:14 which seems to say that by nature,
Gentiles do the things in the law. By nature?
So Man does have some knowledge of right
and wrong? We inherited a sin nature from
Grandpa Adam.....did we also inherit the
knowledge of good and evil?

I'm getting tired of C vs A debate. And I'm sick
and tired of the attitude of some who seem to
think that it is "cut and dry".

Blah blah blah. Let me regurgitate some
theology that's been churned over ad nauseum
for centuries---that'll show 'em! How come
the people that aren't calvinist/arminian/freewill
never get it?

Dr. A E Wilson once said that there are two
FACTS in the bible that cannot be reconciled
philosophically nor theologically. They are:
1) God chose the elect in Christ and predestined
them to be conformed to His image in eternity
past.
2) Whosoever will may come.

I agree with the Doc on this one. Is there
anything else to debate besides C vs A?

 

So why do so many people choose to stay out in the cold then and freeze?

This is foundational. It will have an effect on your entire life. Everything you believe.
This goes back to the Garden with man wanting to be as God, to know good and evil. TO have control of their own destiny.

 

A question nobody can answer but God and the person. I'm guessing they think they don't need help, and don't realize their dire condition...they'll make it to shore on their own.

 

Because they want to.

Or, because the rescuer wants him to stay out there and freeze even though he is offering help.

 

We are all pelagians at worst and semi-pelagians at best. "I can do it on my own; grace is optional," says the pelagian. The semi-pelagian says, "I can do it if I get a little help with grace."

But once saved, some in their understanding subscribe to the Arminian position, which is one step removed from semi-pelagianism, which is one step removed from pelagianism, and others to the Calvinist position, saying, "It is all of God, from start to finish.

I was dead in sin, in toto, but because of his sovereign choice of me, when I heard the gospel call, the Spirit enabled me as in the case of Lydia, as evidence of that, I responded in faith and repentance, which I exercised, but before I boast, they too are of God,

then I heard the divine judge say, "You are justified because of the imputed righteousness of my Son,

then I was adopted and sealed with the Spirit of promise,

and as I await my glorification, I now in obedience, will continue in sanctification, being conformed to the image of Christ.

Soli Deo Gloria
Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Soli Christo
Soli Deo Gloria

 

Those two are very easily reconciled. Who are the whosoever who will? The ones God chose and predestined.

Problem solved.

 

Act 26:28Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

 

Okay, but I still believe my free will arguments. I have read and completely appreciate the other positions (including the Calvinist and determinist positions) but don't find them awfully convincing.

I really don't want to get into a huge discussion about this because 2000 years of Church history have shown us that is silly and we won't resolve any of the issues. Please do remember that the other side(s) have good arguments and are still full of faithful followers of Jesus Christ who have earnest motivations in their walks and witness. Blessings!

 

At the end of it all, in light of eternity, I must agree with you. However I see some pastoral benefits to Calvinism that I do not see in any other approach.

 

There is also the element of security. Many believers are so insecure believing in arminianism. Wondering if they are really saved, if they really meant it etc.
Many find great comfort realizing that it was ALL of God.

 

So would I. The use of the acronym TULIP, where the L stands for "limited atonement" is liable to lead to misunderstandings, such as the idea that the population of saved souls in glory will be small. "Particular Redemption" is a better term, in my view, but of course "TUPIP" is not a real word, and "TULIP" is. I wonder if the same problem occurs amongst Christians whose language is not English.

 

Sure....and the whosoever wills have made a decision to accept rather than
to reject.

How come nobody has taken up my question about Romans 2:14?

 

I am trying to understand this C/A debate. Is it not possible (from a Calvinistic viewpoint) to believe that God is BOTH sovereign AND somehow allows man a "real choice"? I cannot fully express my own interpretation of the scriptures that BOTH sides of the issue quote as saying "their side" is right. But my interpretation is that with God, all things ARE possible--including the possibility that He can still "give us a choice" AND be sovereign. I do not see it as an either/or problem. I believe God can do anything, even if it seems impossible to our mortal minds. I do not believe that I can "limit" Him in anyway--but I DO believe He gives us a real choice....I also believe He already KNOWS what that choice is. And I know that doesn't really make sense "logically" and that both sides of the C/A debate could claim me in "their camp", at least to a certain degree.

I guess what I'm asking is this--is the Calvinistic position such that Calvinists believe that those who are NOT explicitly Calvinistic in their beliefs are somehow "less Christian", because to Calvinists, the Arminian-leaning/free-willers are trying to BE God? I'm truly not trying to start an argument or "bait" someone into questioning someone else's salvation--I am truly trying to understand WHY it is such a "sore spot" in the theological discussions I've managed to slog through here on the board so far. Because I REALLY believe that I'm saved, that God let me choose, that He will KEEP me saved because Christ's work on the cross was sufficient once and for all, that my works can avail me nothing, and that God is in control of everything....I simply ALSO believe that He DOES not "choose that some will perish"....I do not believe that He canNOT choose that, or that He SHOULD not choose that--just that He DOES not choose that. Where would I fall on the C/A continuum? And I really, REALLY don't want to sound argumentative.....I'm trying to learn and understand. :saint:

Thanks!

 

It sounds like you are on the correct path to learning. Keep your heart and mind open!

Having said that, also be prepared to hear you serve another "god" because you believe like you do. It's happened a couple time in the last few days alone, and is a blatant violation of BB rules. When a post is reported, the heavily calvinistic administrator seems to want to throw out the rule book here on the BB, and demean the one reporting it through PM, basically agreeing with the post in question. Oh well for an unbiased environment

 

The problem is finding Scriptural support for your position. You might also want to define what you mean by a "real choice".

Scripture. Let's go by Scripture, and not what we think is possible, or a possibility.

Again, it is not what we believe. It is what God says, and what Scripture indicates, or clearly states. A visiting preacher was once stopped right there in the middle of the sermon by the church's pastor because he kept interposing "I believe the Scriptures mean to say this, or that.... This is what I feel the Scripture is really saying....I think this Scripture says...."

The pastor of the church plainly told him: The congregation did not come to hear what you believe, or what you think. They came to hear what God's word says. And both preachers were modern day Arminians to the core.

No disrespect meant, but, though I am not a Calvinist, I would clearly say you are in the Arminian side, or leaning towards it.

At 4 posts, I don't think you've been around too long to figure out that both sides throw the same pie at each other. Some Arminians here have said the same thing about Calvinists, and the most constant accusation is that Calvinists are trying to put God in a box.

Because people on this board are humans and sinners, and therefore, some approach the discussion with an "air" of superiority over the other, and the other senses that "air" and responds in kind, and words that shouldn't have been said are exchanged, and before you know it, the thread has "gone wild".

To be fair, many here on both sides have also discussed these topics with intelligence and charity towards each other, but, hey, an army is maligned because of the misconduct of one or some. :tear:

Well, believe what you want, Hopeful. Discuss what you will. Iron sharpeneth iron, you know.
Besides, where in the Bible does it say that one's theology saves him or damns him ?
I can shout at the top of my voice on top of Mt. Everest, or in the middle of New York City's Broadway Street that I am one of God's own, if God did not write my name in His Book, then I ain't one of God's own.
I can deny at the top of my voice on top of Mt. Everest, or in the middle of New York City's Broadway street that I do not believe God chooses one over the other, but if at the end of my life, or at judgment day, the Book of Life is opened and my name is there, I will be at the right side of the throne.
That's the way it cuts.

 

Thank you for your answer, webdog, and for the advice.

I would also appreciate commentary from those who adhere strongly to Calvinistic doctrine. I will take no offense to anyone questioning my salvation or the God I serve, because I am quite assured of where I stand with my Creator....but there is no PURPOSE in questioning someone's salvation (as in, that person SPECIFICALLY), EXCEPT to be argumentative....which is what I wish to avoid. I truly want to understand Calvinistic doctrine, as opposed to "my own raising in the church", which was STRONGLY "once-saved-always-saved", but apparently ALSO strongly adhering to the "we choose" point of view. But in NO church I have ever attended have I EVER heard anyone say that God is NOT sovereign, so I did not realize that there is such a doctrinal "struggle", if you will, over this issue.

So I am trying to understand WHY it is not reconcilable in a Calvinist's mind--or an Arminian's, for that matter--and if this means (to a Calvinist) that NON-Calvinists are NOT following scripture simply because they have arrived at a different interpretation of the SAME scripture, if they are ALSO following the parts of scripture that pertain to salvation and following Christ.

Again, NOT trying to be argumentative--just trying to understand why this is such a hot topic. And I appreciate honest, direct conversation on ANY issue that brings everyone to a deeper study and understanding of God's word and applying it to our everyday lives.

 

Wow. You say you are not Calvinistic, and yet this does seem to me to be a strongly Calvinistic doctrine. And I apologize if my only having four posts means that I have overstepped my bounds in asking this question. I may not have posted much, but I have read as many threads as I could find in the archives about this topic (and several others) since I've been "lurking around". I had the questions I asked BECAUSE of what I was reading, and thought it was okay to ask for clarification.

Does your statement above mean that a Calvinist--who believes in all five TULIP points strongly--ALSO believes that unless his name is in that Book--that he is not saved? In other words, can a Calvinist KNOW that his name is in the book, or does Calvinist doctrine, in essence, state that NNE knows if they are elect? This IS asking a question about beliefs, after all. I am NOT asking about what God says--I am asking about what we--as those fallible humans--BELIEVE about what God says, because each "side" often uses the SAME scripture saying that it "states clearly" that "their side" is right. Again, as I stated in my previous post--I believe God IS sovereign and that it's all up to Him. He made me and He can do anything He wants to do with me. I'm just trying to understand this argument.

 

Didn't you say "I'm getting tired of C vs A debate. And I'm sick
and tired of the attitude of some who seem to
think that it is "cut and dry". ?

Maybe that's why.