The GOD of Mercy!

Well, yeah, I'm Primitive Baptist, and though we also adhere to the TULIP interpretation, we have a very different view of the gospel than Calvinists.
We don't hold to "gospel regeneration", which is to say, the elect must hear the gospel in order for the Holy Spirit to be able to work on them and regenerate them.
We believe the Spirit regenerates His own independent of any means, of man, of anything, and that He is able to do so because He is Omnipresent, being God, therefore His elect will come to be drawn to Christ at the Spirit's own time and choosing regardless of that person's chronological or geographical, theological or credal, situation.

No need to apologize. My remark wasn't meant to "put you in place". Just to point out that both sides are guilty of throwing mud at the other.

Oh, yeah, the archives. Forgot about that. Sorry.

I cannot speak for them, neither can I speak for all Primitive Baptists, but, personally, that is what I believe.

I don't think there is a Calvinist on this board, or any Primitive Baptist, or even Arminian, Classic or Modern, who will unequivocally say that his name is in the Book of Life and he knows it.

I cannot lay claim to that, simply because I wasn't even there before the foundation of the world. Only the Father, the Son, and the Spirit were there.

However, I know the works that God had wrought in my life. I know how he brought me from spiritual darkness to light, and how he made my soul thirst for Him as, in David's word, "a deer panteth for the water".

I trust in His mercy, and pin my hope on Christ.

And if I am wrong ? Does that make God unjust ? Not one second.

Let's have them answer that one.

Point understood.

 

Especially at this exact moment (I'm on a work lunchbreak), I can offer no Scripture any different than what has been (often in loud, painful tones) "offered" here on the BB in previous threads by many (much more learned) individuals have offered. (BTW, this does not mean that I don't have what I consider to be valid Scriptural support "for my position".) However, since each "side" shoots down the other's interpretation of these verses, I don't think I could offer anything new to the conversation that would persuade or dissuade anyone on either side. I'm merely trying to understand it all as it's already been presented here.

My definition of real choice is the literal one--God gives ME the choice to choose or reject Him. What cannot be reconciled, based on what I've read here, is my equally strong belief that God is still completely sovereign. I don't think I limit Him in anyway when I assert the belief that HE chose to give me a choice. I think His ways are ways that I cannot fully comprehend with a 3-D brain.

And, again, I have to state MY "belief" that all arguments, opinions, or beliefs presented here by ANYONE are THEIR interpretation/position/belief about what the Bible "clearly says". We are discussing OUR BELIEFS (our position, our interpretation) about what God says. It can ONLY be "filtered through" our own individual minds and hearts--thus everything even the greatest mind or authority ON EARTH gives is "their interpretation" (i.e., belief about) what Scripture says, and how the Holy Spirit reveals it to us. I believe that as long as we ("we" being those who believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior) earnestly seek Him that God looks on all of our "spats" with the same look a loving earthly father gives his quarrelling sons--He loves us all and knows that some day we'll understand the REAL truth of the matters we now quarrel over.

In the meantime, I'm just trying to understand the argument! :laugh:

 

Thank you for your comments, and for clarifying your position on this. I agree with you completely that we must "pin our hopes on Christ". I also believe that there is no injustice in God whatEVER He chooses to do/whatever way He chooses to do it. I also know I'll have a lot to learn when this life is over. :godisgood:

 

Yeah.... you're right. I'm grumpy.

But I'm also not understanding Romans 2:14.

 

ESPECIALLY thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, pinoybaptist! Sincere debate and conversation are a blessing. :saint:

 

What don't you understand about Romans 2:14?

In my experience, the biggest problem with people and Romans is that they tend to yank out this or that verse and examine it in isolation. Of all the NT books, Romans is the worst possible book for that kind of study. Most of the book is a long, progressive unveiling of what salvation is all about. No single verse has any meaning without viewing it as part of the process. You can't stop at any point until the explanation is finished -- because if you do stop at any given point, you've stopped at an incomplete revelation.

 

You're most welcome, bro., and not to flatter you, but you have a good spirit.

 

Ok. Are God and Satan equals? Is man's "tie-breaking vote" just a tabula rasa libertarian eeny-meeny-miney-moe "choice" or does man's fallen sin nature actually affect his "free will" choices?

Ok. Does this by definition imply that all persons have some kind of statistically equal, tabula rasa, libertarian "free will" to pick and choose to obey or disobey on a random whim not influenced or defined by their being (that of being a fallen sinful creature)?

What if you are unable to extend your hand (you are not even conscious of your situation)? Does the guy in the lifeboat just stay there and let you freeze and drown, or does he reach and pull you out regardless? I like that illustration better, although it would not correctly illustrate that sinful man deliberates his situation. God reaches out to a sinner and effectually changes that sinner's will so that the sinner then wants salvation.

All things being equal, why does one take the help and another does not? I really would like to see someone answer this question in a way that actually makes sense (logically and Scripturally).

Paul's point was that the Law did not save. Even the Gentiles did some things similar to the Law. The Jews were not special in that they uniquely had salvation by keeping the Law. Only by grace through faith, and not the deeds of the Law (whether Jew or Gentile) is one saved.

Yes, all have the knowledge of good and evil. All do some good deeds and some evil deeds. Not all are righteous in that they have a regenerated heart that realizes that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour, cannot save himself, believes unto righteousness, and loves Jesus Christ and walks by faith not by sight.

Some want to study to show themselves approved unto God and believe that His Word has answers and want to understand it more. Sometimes the best way to learn and understand is through debate.

Reconcile them? Simple. 1 yields 2.

 

I agree. The chapter and verses divisions of the bible were added for convenience, long after the scripture was complete. The present chapter divisions in our Bibles were added in 1205, and verses in the 16th century.

The same Paul who wrote:

"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,"​

in what we call Romans 2.14, continued in the very next words:

who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)​

Even more strikingly, not many sentences later, in what we call Romans 3.20, he tells us what the law is for:

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.​

Keeping God's law can only make us right with Him if we keep every part of it absolutely and perfectly, and we can't. We need the perfect righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Aresman, David,

thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it.

 

pionybiptist said
I don't think there is a Calvinist on this board, or any Primitive Baptist, or even Arminian, Classic or Modern, who will unequivocally say that his name is in the Book of Life and he knows it.

I know with all my heart my name is in that book,
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.
Jesus saved me, I know my name is in the book of life, because anyone whose name is not in there will be cast into the lake of fire. And likeI said Jesus is the one who I put My trust in. Not in being a Calvinist or an Arminian or any other just plain ol Jesus

 

Good for you.

I'd rather just trust in His goodness and mercy, than make a claim which may turn out to be based on feelings and actions when i scrutinize myself more deeply.

 

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
Do you not belive the bible is 100% true.
do you not belive that Jesus will do what he said He whould.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

 

Our salvation isn't based on our feelings and actions, thank the Lord. It's based on His actions and love for us. We can know we are saved if we trust in His word.


1 John 5
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


If you believe in the name of the Son of God, then you HAVE eternal life and you can shout it from the rooftops!

 

Amen :thumbs:

Since salvation is of the Lord...I can know He will do what He says He will do!

 

Again, I say, good for you.

Go on ahead, I am not stopping you or discouraging you, or disparaging your faith.

The issue was: Do I know for certain that my name is written in the Book of Life ? Not whether I believe in Christ.

The answer I gave was : no. And my mistake, perhaps, was making a sweeping statement with regards to Calvinists and Arminians.

I take that back.

If you believe your name is in the Book of Life because you believe, then well and good. continue on.

Now, if you understand that you believe because your name is on the Book of Life, then you might be on the right track.

But, if you know your name is on the Book of Life as a result of your belief, then I don't think that is the point John is making, who is the same John that wrote the Book of Revelation which said the names of those in Book of Life was written before the foundation of the world, and the same John who wrote that "as many as received him to them gave He power to become the sons of God, Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

So my answer stands: I do not know if my name is in the Book of Life, because I was not there before the foundation of the world.

If you say yours are, Godspeed.

 

There is just so much you can "know" or you would make faith void. Of course we "know" as much as we can for we have done what Christ told us to do and we can die with the Hope which we have not seen in our hearts. This sounds so harsh to say well "we have a Hope". That Hope is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, which is an anchor of the soul.
If you have ever had "one" doubt in yourself since becoming a Christian, then your absolute knowledge just went out the window. I can say I "know" also, as much as any man alive, but that "knowledge" is by faith in Jesus, because I did what He told me to do in the scriptures and if you do these things, then according to scripture, you know you are saved, but it all comes back to faith again that the scriptures are the word of God. There is only one way to be a Christian and that is "through faith".

 

Absolutely. I don't have faith in "my faith". I have faith in Jesus Christ. The reason I can know I'm saved is because I believe in what He has done and trust the Holy Scriptures. I do have a hope, but it's called hope because we haven't actually realized our salvation. The object of my hope and faith is Christ, so my hope is certain as if it were already here. And He will finish the work He began in me. Therefore, I have total assurance in His promise to keep me and deliver me up to the Father.

 

I agree, being a preacher for over 35 years and yet it is hard to completely explain this one Amy. You have said it about as good as it can be put.

 

Amen! :thumbs: