The Gospel: God Centered, Free, Powerful

Rippon :Bingo! God really did chose some people for heaven , not all. You're right ,His death was not for all people. ( But I would caution you never to use the word elect in reference to someone bound for Hell. Reprobates are fore-ordained to damnation. But elect is always toward those bound for glory and everlasting life.)

 

Verse 11 stands in opposition to your idea: Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose in election might stand.(TNIV)

 

So God is just but not fair?

I guess that does devolve from a scheme where God only lets certain ones hear the gospel and believe -- unless both those premises are wrong. :tear:

skypair

 

It is precisely that verse that bolsters PK's case! Election of Jacob and not Esau to salvation is NOT in view here.

The "election" spoken of is of the Abraham-Isaac-Jacob line that were the "family tree" ("olive tree"/nationality) through which God would create "elect," believing Israel - "My chosen people!"

BTW, glad to see you engaging the issues of the article. :wavey: That opening video of dale-c's was quite controversial and he "came off" like his Catholic equivalent, Scott Hahn who gets his audiences roaring with laughter over tenets that Protestant believers hold dearly.

skypair

 

God is just. But you do not want God to be just regarding your sins do you? You want mercy.

God has indeed arranged it that only some hear the gospel. And of that group, only some of these will believe.But I don't get any connection you are trying to make here.

 

I didn't see any jocularity in White's message. He was being sarcastic at times, poking holes in typical evangelical/Fundamentalists mindsets -- but I wasn't laughing in response to his message. It resonated with me. He was being very biblical and very clear.

 

Isn't it nice how so many christians refuse to admit the original meanings of so many words in the bible, so they do not have to the believe scripture. I hear this all the time. I was told the other day, they did not believe in predestination or election, I said they're in the bile, explain that, he just said I just don't believe them. Refusing to deal with their exsistance, refusing the original greek word meanings. God doesn't know what He's talking about apparently.
To call God unfair is to accuse Him of unrighteousness.
God, the creator of the universe, sets His rules, we do not, not one man alive has the right to call God unfair.

 

The same spoken words and tone would have evoked self-serving laughter among Hahn's audiences. Perhaps Hahn "drips" his presentation with a bit more sarcasm but not that I could distinguish.

In 2-3 responses on the issue, you are trying to squirm away from the notion that God is fair. Is He?

skypair

 

I believe in predestination. I believe in election. I just do not believe in a calvinistic definition of the terms.

I trust Jesus. He said if He be lifted up He would draw all men to Himself. John 3 makes it clear those who believe are saved, and those who do not are condemned.

I like the old preacher's illustration of systematic theology:

It's a hot and humid day in East Texas. We are at a little country store with a pop machine and peanuts inside. 100 hot and weary cotton pickers with no money mill around outside.

The true arminian thinks God walks up, buys 100 rc colas and 100 bags of peanuts and goes out and sits on the porch. If you come up and ask nicely, you get an rc and a bag of peanuts. Your name is not put on them, and if you set them down for even a minute you lose them. If you don't consume them with a fair amount of couth God will come snatch them away.

The free gracer believes God goes in and buys 100 pops and 100 bags of peanuts. He comes to you and offers you some. You don't have to accept it, but once you do it is yours forever. He will hang out with you, love on you, and even let you help go around and offer everyone some.

The calvinist thinks God shows up, buys a few rc's and a few bags of peanuts, goes out and picks out a few people, rassles them down and pours the pop down their throats and dumps in the peanuts whether they want'em or not. Then He sits back to watch and make sure they act like people who are grateful.

Free grace is the only one that matches up with the whole Bible in my book.

Your milage may vary.

 

So he thinks -- same as White! :laugh:

Interesting. C.S. Lewis says that "fairness" is the FIRST evidence that we have that there IS a God! Where do I get the idea that someone should be allowed to take anything from me?? CONSCIENCE tells us that this is 1) not right and 2) that there is a higher truth than greed and self. And why do we have a conscience? Because God gave us "God awareness" in our souls -- the "knowledge of good."

He would if they would. "Whosoever," rip.

Huh? Where did we learn "fairness" to begin with???

Yeah, and we have the perfect right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Where did we get this idea??

First, are you working for the Obama campaign on your time off??

Second, that discussion is about why God would birth one man as a Jew and another as a Gentile. You didn't read far enough. Read 9:22-23 -- 9:24, "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

But He does. You are arguing against one of the dispensations God gave us so that we might see Him, rip.

Pardon me, rip, but the observation you make about "bounty" applies to ALL who apply His "law." And this is yet another witness of His salvation -- "behold the goodness of God leadeth men unto salvation." Rom 2:4 ANYONE who is willing to listen to God is capable of being saved. Or as Jesus said, "Whosoever."

skypair

 

:laugh: I resemble that (here in East Texas)!! That pastor has the "parable" down where people really live!! You need to have more posts that just 88! Work on it, nodak! :laugh:

skypair

 

The calvinist thinks God shows up, buys a few rc's and a few bags of peanuts, goes out and picks out a few people, rassles them down and pours the pop down their throats and dumps in the peanuts whether they want'em or not. Then He sits back to watch and make sure they act like people who are grateful.

RIP: That's blasphemy. Earlier in your post you said you disagreed with the way Calvinists define things like predestination. Well, wow! Just go ahead and state total fabrications and call it Calvinism! That way your particular definition will hold sway, won't it?
You can't name a single Calvinist on the BB ( or elsewhere, for that matter) who belives God violently forces someone into the kingdom. Be honest, it won't help you persuade someone to be a Free-willer, or Free-gracer as you like to say, but at least Calvinists won't dismiss you for dealing in pure bunkum.

 

I would encourage you to go back and read the post very carefully again.

 

"Riddle Me This?" If you're predestined from the beginning can you reject it?

 

Can you reject being born of the Spirit and adopted as a Son?

Maybe God can give us the answer.

 

I did read your as-of-yet-unnamed author carefully.Those essays are full of holes so big that Mac Trucks are going in and out.