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Featured The Heavens and Earth: Matt. 5:18 in Covenant Context

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Jun 1, 2021.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled". - Matthew 5:18

    We bring so much of our own worldview into Scripture that we have a hard time understanding Bible terminology. And many churches today do not help the situation. They are New Testament churches - in the worst sense. They teach the New Testament as a stand-alone revelation, disconnected from the foundational background that gives meaning to much of the New Testament.

    Case in point is the "heaven and the earth". No, "heaven and earth" do not exist today. Not the "heaven and earth" that Jesus was speaking about in Matt. 5:18. Those heavens and earth refer to the Jewish dispensation.

    "The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
    Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have
    rebelled against Me;"
    - Isaiah 1:1-2

    Now, is God speaking to all of the Earth here? Is He speaking to the heavens? No. He is speaking to Israel; according to context, to "Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah".

    "But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared; The LORD of hosts is His name. And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You
    are My people.'"
    - Isaiah 51:15-16

    When did God create the Heavens and Earth? According to this passage it was after He divided the Red Sea. Notice the tenses - "That I may plant..." No, I am not denying the physical creation as described in Genesis 1, but that is not the topic here. And - once again, focusing on this passage in Isaiah - what were the
    accompanying results?

    1. The planting of the heavens,
    2. The laying of the foundations of the earth, and
    3. The saying to Zion, "You are My people".


    It is this "heavens and earth" Jesus is referring to in Matt. 5:18.

    Peter, writing three decades later, but still before the Parousia, describes this same heavens and earth:

    "But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter. 3:7

    Peter is looking forward to the time that Isaiah had written of:

    "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." - Isaiah 65:17

    Peter looked forward to an event that we now look back on. An event whose present reality we are blessed with. But once again, most have a hard time appreciating the context of Christ's, Peter's, and Isaiah's words because we are so attuned to our own understanding of the phrase "heavens and earth", not the Scriptural intent.
     
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  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    In addition to a denial of The General Resurrection and The Second Coming of Jesus,
    is a third renunciation of The Christian Faith that I consider heretical.

    Talking and participation on the board is great, however, these heresies should actually be prohibited, I believe.

    They are good to know and, yet, ripe for reporting, imho.

    Why?

    Heaven and Earth exist, today.

    The General Resurrection if future

    and Jesus is Coming Again, at any moment.

    No time for deceit and antichrist teaching.
     
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  3. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Oh please. What exactly from the Bible am I denying? The Bible, not tradition and creeds. You are steeped in the latter that you, apparently, cannot distinguish between the two.

    You are the one that is having a hard time believing the word of Christ when He said, among other things, all these things shall come to pass in this generation. And He was answering the very disciples who had asked the question, not talking over their heads to generations millennia later.

    The traditions of men make the Word of God of no effect. I believe the Word of God. If you think I am in error then I suggest you correct me with Bible references, something that your drive-by anathema of me is totally void of.

    Do you believe Isa. 7:14 is true? Yes or no.
     
    #3 asterisktom, Jun 1, 2021
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  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    He didn't say " all these things shall come to pass in this generation".
    Notice what He did say...

    The disciples asked Him about the end of the world ( not the end of "an age" ):
    " And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" ( Matthew 24:3 ).

    The Lord then gives us a list of all the things that will come to pass from that point on....

    1) Many shall come in His name, saying "I am Christ" and shall deceive many ( Matthew24:5 ).
    Has this happened yet? Of course. It's also still happening:
    List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

    2) Wars and rumors of wars ( Matthew 24:6 ).
    Has this happened yet? Of course, and it's still happening.

    3) Nation shall rise against nation, kingdom shall rise against kingdom ( Matthew 24:7 );
    Still happening.
    There shall be famines and pestilences ( diseases, sicknesses ), earthquakes ( more and more, Earthquakes Today: latest quakes worldwide past 24 hours, Tuesday, 1 Jun 2021 - complete list and interactive map ) in diverse places ( Matthew 24:8 )...
    All these are the beginning of sorrows for this world, Tom.

    The beginning....still happening.
     
    #4 Dave G, Jun 1, 2021
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  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    4) Christians hated of all nations for His namesake, being delivered up and afflicted ( Matthew 24:9 )...still happening.

    5)
    Many hating one another, betraying one another, etc ( Matthew 24:10 )...still happening.

    6) Many false prophets shall arise and shall deceive many ( Matthew 24:11 )...still happening.
    Turn on the radio, TBN, etc. They are out there and waxing worse and worse.
    Iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold ( are we seeing less and less compassion for our fellow man in the world today? Yes. )

    All of this is still happening.

    7) Here is the most important one..." And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." ( Matthew 24:14 ). <----- Still happening.

    Has the end come yet if all of this is still happening?
    No it has not.

    The end was not in 70 A.D., and neither was the first resurrection.
     
    #5 Dave G, Jun 1, 2021
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  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Actually Tom, I'm attuned to exactly what the Scriptures say...
    Peter looked forward to an event that we still look forward to, because the events of just Matthew 24:5-14 are still happening.

    Matthew 24:15-22...
    Have we yet seen the abomination of desolation?
    If we did, then we all missed it, and the events of Matthew 24:15-22, including the tribulation of Revelation, have already happened.

    To me, you're not taking seriously, and step-by-step, all the words and events that the Lord said would happen in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
    And that there would be an end to at least several of them.

    The end of those things has not happened yet.

    For example,
    The Gospel is still being preached in all the world.
     
    #6 Dave G, Jun 1, 2021
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  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
    33 so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    "

    There it is, Tom.
    The generation that sees all of those things fulfilled, shall not pass.

    Again, has the Gospel been preached in all the nations for a witness?
    No.
    Has He sent forth His angels and gathered His elect from the 4 winds?
    No.

    That would be in the history books, and the only thing we see that far back is the fall of Rome...

    Have there been two standing in a field, one taken and another left?
    Two sleeping in a bed, one taken and the other left?
    No.

    Ever heard of something that massive happening?
    I haven't.

    If you have, please link the historical documents for such an event, including a series of plagues, hail, pestilences, earthquakes, animals going berserk, people crying out to stones to fall on them, etc, and great heat that wiped out 2/3 of the world's population, all green grass, a third of all trees, water being turned to wormwood and killing millions... in a 3.5 year time period;

    I'm a student of world history, Tom, and I've never seen or heard of any of that happening yet.
     
    #7 Dave G, Jun 1, 2021
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  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Finally,
    Are you telling me that, in direct contradiction to the day and the hour of His coming that no man knows ( Matthew 24:36 ), that you somehow are looking back on that very same day and hour, knowing exactly when it was, and none of the rest of us know, because there's no record of it ever happening?

    In addition, are you aware that in a prior thread, you stated that the first resurrection was already past....
    Not knowing that the recipients of that resurrection are the only ones who will ever be saved and be with the Lord?
    The dead in Christ rising first, and then we which are alive and remaining meeting Him in the clouds?

    Tom, the second resurrection is the one unto death.
    Those are the ones death and Hell shall give up and their names not found written in the Book of Life.
    In effect,
    it seems that you're telling people here that not only are you going to the Lake of Fire, but so are they.


    Please allow me to summarize...
    Basically stated, you're telling your readers that,

    1) They have no hope in the resurrection, because it is passed. These bodies that they are living in are the only ones they shall ever see.
    2) They have no hope to be with Christ because He's already come and gone...there will be no "3rd coming"...unless the next thing you're going to tell us is that there will be a third coming.
    3) The abomination of desolation happened in the past, as did the tribulation.
    Therefore, we're all living in a Post-Tribulational world waiting for a Saviour that will never come again...not even in the clouds.

    4) According to this:

    " Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

    The resurrection is past?
    Then we've all missed out, and none of us will have glorified bodies that are no longer tainted with sin.
    Also, only the ones who have experienced the first resurrection are the ones that the second death ( the Lake of Fire ) has no power over.

    Therefore, all who are reading this are going to the Lake of Fire.


    Ouch.
    It seems that every time that I look at one of your threads, it gets worse and worse for those who love the Lord.:Sick
     
    #8 Dave G, Jun 1, 2021
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  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Is it a discussion you want? Or are you just venting? You flood the thread with five posts so I assume just the latter. I am not going to waste my time over twenty odd points. That is not a discussion.

    Make one point, or just a few. Then I will answer.
     
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  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Quite a bit.:Speechless
    What's to discuss?
    The Scriptures?

    No, Tom.
    It seems that you're not going to be persuaded of anything in that direction....
    And I've already tried that many times now.:(

    Do you even realize the ramifications of what it is that you're teaching, when you tell believers that everything that they look forward to has already happened?
    I seriously doubt that you do.:oops:



    I'll take my leave of your thread, and wish you well.
     
    #10 Dave G, Jun 1, 2021
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  11. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    You cannot just narrow it down to a question or two or three? It is to be either a flood or nothing? Fine. Give me one verse that I am denying.
     
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  12. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    duplicate post
     
  13. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    No, Dave, it is "age", not "world". Look it up in the Greek.
    I notice that you dispensationalists almost always go to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew, not the one in Mark or Luke. The reason, it seems, is that you can start out with this three-part question that seems to validate your futurist scenario. The fact is that this question is the same one that was reported in Mark and Luke. If the disciples really had asked something like what you are saying then we would have it also in the other two Synoptics.
    All of these had happened in the first century.
    No. It is a done deal.

    But I will move on to your next post to see what you have. Since you would not give me a smaller post to work with I decided to just tackle all of these as I have time.
     
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  14. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    The fact that these things are still happening is not the point. And many of these events did not happen to the degree that they did in the first century.
    The Gospel was to be preached in all the οἰκουμένῃ , which is pretty much coextensive with the Roman Empire. Actually the reason for this is that the Jewish Diaspora was pretty much in the same area. It is not the world as we think of it.

    Strongs defines it as "land, i.e. The globe; specially, the Roman empire."

    This is the same word used in Luke 2:1

    "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world - οἰκουμένῃ - should be taxed."

    Clearly Caesar was not taking a census in order to tax all the countries of the world. It is the Empire that was his concern.

    And the Gospel was indeed preached throughout that world. We have that assurance from Paul:

    "... the Gospel, Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth" - Col. 1:6

    "Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" - Col. 1:23b


    The rest will have to wait till later.
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense rhetoric. "the Jewish dispensation" is extra Biblical terminology.
     
  16. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I really wish you were attuned to exactly what the Scriptures say. Then it would be easier when I draw your attention to an important cross reference to this passage above. In Mark 13:9:

    But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

    Are these beatings in synagogues "still happening"?
    The abomination has already happened. Back in the 1st century. The reason it flies over your radar is because you believe all of the imaginary Darbyist fictions. If you would read history (Josephus, especially, but also Tacitus and others) then you would have a better grounded idea of what the abomination really was.
    Oh, I do take this seriously. I taught and preached the very things you are arguing for for decades. Until I finally really did notice what the Bible teaches.

    More later
     
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  17. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    So is the word "Trinity". Yet I assume you believe it.
     
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  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I believe you deny Cardinal Christian doctrine that qualifies as heretical.

    You are off the edge of the earth if there was one.
     
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  19. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    What you believe about what I don't believe is moot. No Scripture. Just tiresome knee-jerk assertions taught to you by tradition.


    Once again: If you think I am in error then correct me with Bible references.

    And: Do you believe Isa. 7:14 is true? Yes or no. Not a hard question.

    For the record: I do not believe it. That verse says "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son."

    I do not believe it because it already happened. If I would believe it then it must mean that I think the Virgin Birth is still future.

    Do you see my point? Transfer this over to the second coming and the resurrection. There are some things in the Bible that are spoken of as still future but then are fulfilled before our time.

    Such as the Virgin Birth, the Incarnation, etc. By the same token the second coming and the rapture have also been fulfilled before our time. One cannot just quote verses saying it is future to prove a futurist point.
     
    #19 asterisktom, Jun 1, 2021
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  20. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    You need to study what "this generation" means. He did not people far in the future. He was speaking of His generation. This ties in with the many passages that assure us His coming would be in that time period. I would gladly go into this topic, but it would be different thread.

    Neither is the fig tree Israel, BTW. Luke 21:29-31 adds "and all the trees".

    This has been answered earlier.
    Judging by this answer I assume you have not read Josephus.
    Yes, this already happened. Another thread could go here.
    If you were a better student of the Bible, Dave, and with more than a passing knowledge of Josephus you would see that all of these have been fulfilled to the letter. Part of the problem for you is that you are looking for worldwide scope for all of this, not recognizing that has to do with the end of the Jewish Dispensation. And what you think are going to be cosmic events in the future are actually events of a different nature expressed in cosmic, apocalyptic language - the same kind of language used in the Old Testament. Hills melting, stars falling, etc. all of that happened in the Old Testament. Why then do we try read Revelation in a literal way? Answer: We are unfamiliar with Old Testament.
     
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