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The Heresy of Ideological Religion

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by FollowTheWay, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Your argument is with Paul, not me. Paul said governing authorities were from God and he laid out the principles that guide them. They are indeed biblical principles. We can apply them to governments and judge which ones are following and which ones aren't.

    This is all semantics. If you support the GOP's policies of nationalism, life, etc., you support the GOP. You're no better than any other GOP supporter.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Kristof: What about someone like me whose faith is in the Sermon on the Mount, who aspires to follow Jesus’ teachings, but is skeptical that he was born of a virgin, walked on water, multiplied loaves and fishes or had a physical resurrection? Am I a Christian, President Carter?

    Carter: I do not judge whether someone else is a Christian. Jesus said, “Judge not, …”

    Kristof:One of my problems with evangelicalism is that it normally argues that one can be saved only through a personal relationship with Jesus, which seems to consign Gandhi to hell. Do you believe that?

    Carter: I do not feel qualified to make a judgment. I am inclined to give him (or others) the benefit of any doubt.


    Opinion | President Carter, Am I a Christian?

    Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me." Jimmy Carter says we can't judge whether or not someone who denies the resurrection is saved. Not only that, but we can't make a judgment regarding the salvation of those who reject Christ.

    This is why I said I'd rather stand with Christ. We can't stand with both. Do you share Carter's doubts and lack of discernment regarding these things?
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Wait....are you suggesting that Christians should have supported the DNC when Obama was President? The DNC held a principle of aiding the poor and helping those who couldn't help themselves. Is this what you mean by "biblical principle"? Do you believe Islam to teach "biblical principles" in its stand for make leadership in the home? Are Hindus biblical for following principles that are "pro-life"? Are those who oppose gun ownership following biblical principles if the reason for their opposition is a love for children and an attempt to keep guns out of their hands?

    I support the GOP's stance against abortion. This is not a support for the GOP but an affirmation that their and our (Christian) interest meet on some points. I really don't care about most other points.
     
  4. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    So you feel qualified to pass judgement on someone's salvation? Carter gave the Biblically correct answer. Only The Lord will judge us all. BTW, a friend of mine at church acts as the backup for Jimmy Carter's Sunday School class in Plains, GA. I'll put the question to him.
     
  5. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    Since neither party is Christian at least in my view of Christianity, they should support those things from each one that are moral and true to the Bible. God is neither a Democrat nor a Republican.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do feel qualified to say that no one comes to the Father but by Christ. Do you not???

    Carter gave an unbiblical answer. We are told to have an answer (or "apology") for the faith that is in us. If we cannot stand firm on Christ and the Resurrection, then were exactly are we to stand?

    Carter gave a political answer. (I'm not questioning his salvation, but his stand).
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. Those who are Christians but are also yoked to one party or another should reach across party lines in order to be faithful to God. God's Kingdom is not of this world, whereas our political parties are.
     
  8. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    i do. That wasn't the question. " I do not judge whether someone else is a Christian. Jesus said, “Judge not, …”
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Scripture teaches us to judge within the Church. Carter took the "judge not" out of context by ignoring the very next command to judge.
     
  10. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    Being yoked to a party is not acceptable Christian behavior. What happens is the situation we have now in which you and almost everyone here infer if someone does not follow your party they are not a Christian. Jesus was never attached to any political party or movement.
     
  11. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    LOL! Yeah right Jon (typical liberal logic). I doubt murdering a baby every 33 seconds and making poor communities poorer is what Paul had in mind. Nice try though.

    And you are thoroughly confused about what the Bible says about the function of governing authorities. It's very simple. Protect the innocent, punish the guilty—Romans 13.

    The bible is pro death penalty for the guilty and pro-life for the innocent. This is the function of government. Not much else matters to me.

    And this all rests of the foundation of nationalism created at Babel when God created the nations. Christians are not globalists, they are nationalists (taxes, customs, fear and honor - Romans 13:7). We respect and honor the borders that keep the nations separate, just as God designed.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I suggest you spend a little more effort on Scripture and perhaps a little less with the political herd.

    You assume a nationalism foreign to Scripture - even with Israel. You assume one who opposes abortion must support the GOP to that end. You seem to confuse the principles regarding Christian submission and obedience to secular government with nationalization rather than the witness of the believer.
     
  13. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Insult. Nice. Shows me I've won the point.

    No, I assume nothing. I read Scripture starting in Genesis when the nations were created. The creation of the nations at Babel was pre-Moses, pre-Israel and pre-Abraham. God separated the nations for our good, and globalists have been trying reunite them ever since. The entire anti-borders movement is in fact a globalist movement. And many very well meaning but uninformed Christians have ended up on the wrong side. I simply trust the wisdom of God over the wisdom of men. It's as simple as that.

    And regarding your witness, that's an aspect of testimony. You cannot separate witness from testimony, and you cannot separate testimony from morality and you cannot separate morality from politics. Many try but it can't be done. If the GOP is fitting for life, I'm with the GOP. If I turn my back on the unborn, I destroy my testimony and witness.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not at all. If so you would have lost with the “typical liberal logic” comment, or the “you are thoroughly confused about what the Bible says”. My comment was merely an observation, just as how “hypocritical” may be an applicable term at this point in reply to your comment quoted above. (If you want to whine about the "hypocritical" part, the "report" button is below).
    Except this theory has no biblical basis.

    The reason the languages were “confused” was not to establish national boundaries. At the time of Genesis 11 the whole world had one language. As men moved eastward they settled settled in Babylonia. There they sought to construct a great city and tower.This is common to ANE religion as people built cities (typically temple cities) and ziggurats in order for the god to come down and dwell among the people. The events of Genesis 11 predate ANE ziggurats, but the concept is most likely the same – that is, to re-create a garden (or Eden) state where God once again dwells with man.

    The scattering of Genesis 11 was not (according to Scripture) an establishment of the principle of nationalization but rather a response to the disobedience of men who were commanded to “increase in number and fill the earth” (Genesis 9:19). Rather than doing this they settled in Shinar and God scattered them.

    Which is why I suggested (I thought kindly) that you study Scripture more and secular politics less.
    Yes, I cannot separate my witness from my testimony. I will stand firmly against abortion, against hate, against racism, against taking advantage of the poor…. but at the same time stand firmly against the world because of my stand in Christ.

    The irony here is that you are unable to name even one biblical principle, command, or value that I have opposed on this thread except that I do not believe the GOP to be a Christian organization. Yet you complain when I note that there are some people who seem to believe one political party or another is an extension of the Christian faith.
     
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  15. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    You felt I was whining? LOL! And no, I have no need to report. My gosh, this is nothing compared to some other posters. I'll take the insults in most cases, unless you really start throwing mud. :Mad

    Interesting speculation, but nothing in Scripture speaks specifically to this theory, that they were rebuilding Eden. First, Eden wasn't a stone city. But I digress.

    What it does say is that God wanted to separate mankind to prevent them from what they could do united. That's directly from the text.

    "Indeed the people are one...now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”

    We see the benefit of this when God was able to take out Sodom without taking out the rest of the world. The cultures were separated and quarantined in a sense.

    The fact is, God separated the nations and the Devil has been trying to reunite them ever since. The culmination of his efforts will be realized in end times when anti-Christ takes control of the nations. If you're caught up in globalism you're going down a very dangerous path. From GotQuestions.org:

    The Bible, therefore, shows that any time man attempts “globalization” it is ruled by wicked, ungodly empires. We should oppose globalization to the extent that we understand that it is implemented by Satan, currently the god of this age (2 Corinthians 4:4). It is interesting to note that man’s (and Satan’s) final attempt at globalization will include a resurgence of “Babylon,” which started the globalization effort so long ago (see Revelation 18).​

    In fact I would argue that we as Christians should be much more worried about globalism than even social issues like abortion. Abortion is evil, but imagine how evil things will get if the peoples unite once again. "nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them."
     
  16. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Which are all the reasons I support the GOP and oppose the Dems, and why I'm not taking some phony moral high ground that prevents me from aligning myself with a political party. And I'm glad you mentioned the poor. You must be very happy the economy is doing so well. God bless DJT. :)
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I wasn't saying you were whining. Sorry if you thought otherwise.

    The idea was not building Eden out of stone. The ANE idea was to build a city of God.

    Scripture is absent the idea God designed nationalism. It is absent the idea Satan has been trying to unite nations in opposition to God's dividing of people.

    Instead Scripture says God commanded men to inhabit the earth, men refused, and God scattered them.
     
  18. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Actually liberal dogma is absent of the idea of nationalism. Scripture filled with it, from the creation of the nations at Babel to the affirmation of the blessing of borders (yes, God expresses the goodness of borders), to the authority over those borders by God-apointed governing authorities. If you don't see nationalism in Scripture, you're simply not looking or blinded by globalist dogma. "taxes, customs, fear and honor."

    You're not alone in your error, especially in this day and age, but you are in error.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Oh, don't misunderstand. Scripture does say we are of a nation. I believe in that sense of nationalism. I also believe we are to be loyal and patriotic insofar as that loyalty and patriotism is godly. I mentioned this when others insulted the Obama Presidency and continue to do so with President Trump.

    But if you do not see the reasons Scripture itself gives for paying taxes and rendering honor then you need to revisit the topic.
     
  20. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    My apologies if I'm coming off insulting or smug. The forums can really bring out the worst (though I don't blame the forum or anyone else).

    I'd like to go deeper into this. I'd like to challenge you even on the issue of criticizing presidencies. I think the structure of our government allows us to criticize presidents (mere appointed office holders) if it's done correctly, without violating Scriptural principles. I'll appreciate your return challenges. Gotta run, unfortunately.....
     
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