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The Heresy of the Sinner's Prayer

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by PrimePower7, Aug 30, 2005.

  1. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    By nature she will have greed, envy, impatience, and the list goes on and on.

    It don't go away very far either! :cool:

    john.
     
  2. 4study

    4study New Member

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    Kings James Bond,

    First, I apologize for getting this thread off topic. Even so, I’ve enjoyed the discussions thus far.

    Making choices has everything to do with the issue. In John 1:12, the act of receiving is a choice. The action “received him not” in the previous verse is also a choice. Rejection is not by instinct or nature.

    The human mind is NOT at enminty with God by nature. It is by choice.

    And I have to disagree with the idea of supporting “sin nature” by the behavior of a child. Children are not held accountable for their choices. They don’t understand. So just because a child lies doesn’t mean they have a sinful instinct. What about when they do right things? Certainly we wouldn’t say they have an instinct to do right. They have to be shown what is good and what is bad. So whether they make good choices or bad choices, they don’t understand until they’re taught.
     
  3. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    4study,

    I have also had a certain amount of enjoyment from this topic as well as a certain amount of sadness.

    Here are some words about your "receiving".

    ‘Now the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged’ (1 Cor 2:14)

    A natural man can't receive such things. One must be born again.

    Now you may wish to call some kinds of people innocent, but the Word of God does not.

    Romans 3:10-12. "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."

    People are legally dead as far as God is concerned. The world stands condemned before God.

    The human spirit is dead. Our hearts are dead and enslaved to sin.

    "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?"

    Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

    The natural mind is hostile to God. Do you understand that?

    Romans 8:6-9, "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

    We were all by nature children of wrath.

    If God has saved you it is because He saved you.

    "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions , made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)."

    God made us alive! We were dead. It has all been done by His grace! Not you or your initial will and wise choices.

    It is God that affects people to make good choices.

    God has “predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will” (Ephesians 1:5).

    I may be gone for a few days.

    God bless, KJB
     
  4. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    So,

    What many of you are saying is that belief in Christ is not a necessary part of salvation.

    Why, then, do Christ and Paul and John and Peter say belief is required? Did they just want to "muck up the water" and "confuse" people? Obviously, according to many of you, they said it, but they didn't mean it.

    To the rest of us - they meant what they said.
     
  5. PrimePower7

    PrimePower7 New Member

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    Once again, brethren, the topic is, is it belief as John 3:16 says, or is it prayer that saves? Get off of subject of whether God is the One Who wills through you or whatever. Look at it as a simple question of faith alone or faith in prayer.
     
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Mention heresy in the Calvinian sector and the topic will move to God and His Sovereignity ... Good luck keeping it from getting there.

    however, I believe it is believe and confess ... At least that is what I tho't Paul was talkin' about.
     
  7. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Where is it ever mentioned in the New Testament that someone "prays" to get saved? I don't think you'll find it anywhere. The "sinner's prayer" is a tool used in witnessing to help someone understand the Gospel. It is not necessary to pray, but I think it's kind of like a summary of the Gospel facts, and it mainly used for assurance of salvation. For some people, an action that pinpoints the moment of salvation will help them remember that moment, but I think we should be very clear when witnessing that it is not a prayer that saves, it is God through faith that saves.
     
  8. 4study

    4study New Member

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    King James Bond,

    I would send you a private message but I need to update my profile. Forgive me for carrying on.

    This is an “all or nothing” view. You’re saying either someone is born again and CAN receive the things of the Spirit or someone is not born again and CANNOT receive. I don’t see this verse in that light. It’s not a catch-all describing what a lost person CAN’T do and a saved person CAN do. In my mind, a “natural man” can be a born again person if they’re only interested in worldly wisdom.

    I don’t believe anyone is “innocent”.

    “Legally dead” – I like that. It’s formal and has order. It doesn’t have anything to do with a person’s nature. The problem of Romans 3 is that there SHOULD be a righteous one. There SHOULD be one that understands and seeks for God. Yet there isn’t because they choose to rebel. Not that one arrives at those places by themselves or in their own power, but rather that God provides the necessities.

    Dead in relationship, not in nature.

    The “mind of the flesh” and the “natural man” are very close to being synonymous to me. They both refer to a “worldly view” as opposed to a “godly” one. It’s not a description of nature, it’s a description of choice. Here’s my paraphrase; Someone choosing to “mind the things of the flesh” cannot please God nor will they submit themselves to the law of God. Only someone who chooses to listen to God and follow the “minding of the Spirit” will enjoy the things of the Spirit.

    Amen!

    Amen! I don’t disagree with that. So I’m not talking about an INITIAL will.

    Amen!
     
  9. Link

    Link New Member

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    A lot of what passes for evangelism has little to do with the kind of evangelism we see in the Bible.

    I have seen some pretty fuzzy sinner's prayers. You can have someone God they 'accept Jesus as their personal Savior', but omit to explain important elements of the Gospel to them, and a lot of evangelicals will believe that these people are saved just because they went through the RITUAL of mouthing the words of the sinner's prayer. If just repeating words saves, then isn't everyone who ever repeated the words of the Apostles' Creed or Nicene Creed saved. It is strange to me that a lot of evangelicals (not just Baptists) will consider people from credal churches because they never prayed a prayer to 'accept Jesus as their personal Savior', even if they repeated a creed that explains the elements of the Gospel.

    If someone has not put their faith in Christ after repeating a creed, why would repeating a prayer save them. They need to understand the Gospel, believe it, and repent of their sins.

    I've seen preachers, even, who leave out important elements of the Gospel from their presentation before giving an altar call-- like explaining what sin means, or explaining that Jesus rose from the dead. What does Romans 10:9-10 say?

    I like some of the principles Ray Comfort uses, using the law of God to show the sinner his need for repentance. While I do not believe his 10-commandments method is the only way to go about it, I think he makes some points that are good for theologically fuzzy evangelicals to hear.

    One thing that almost makes me cringe these days is the phrase 'personal Savior'. Maybe it is not so much the phrase, but the fact the people use it without explanation. I do not say,

    'Hi, I'd like you to meet my own personal brother.'

    I say "Hi, I'd like you to meet my brother.'

    Isn't 'personal savior' difficult-to understand jargon. It probably comes off as some kind of weird cliche to unbelievers not familiar with it.

    I have a personal computer, it is mine. I own it. I have my own personal pen. It is mine. I keep it in my pocket. If you do not explain what 'personal Savior' means, what good is using the term? I suppose it was invented for evangelizing religious people who thought of Jesus as a kind of general savior for the whole world, but who did not personally repent of their sins.

    In spite of the fact that 'personal Savior' is not mentioned in scripture, a lot of Christians treat the use of the phrase as a mark of orthodoxy.

    Something else I notice about evangelism in scripture is that when someone was ready to accept the Gospel and repent, he was baptized. Ananias told Paul to arise and be baptized, and calling on the name of the Lord, wash away his sins. We can see how he understood 'baptism for the remission of sins.' Why don't we do like the apostles and other early Christians, and if someone wants to answer God with a good conscience, recieving what Christ has done, with an attitude of repentance, baptize them as soon as possible? We could have them pray before baptism and/or make a confession. But why don't we do things the way they did them in the Bible?
     
  10. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    What would you tell someone who is unsaved about how to get saved?
     
  11. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Repent...
     
  12. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Greetings

    Jesus Himself gave the recipe: believe in Him (John 6:29).

    When talking with Nicodemus, He used the murmuring Israelites and the brazen serpent (Num 21) to teach that a simple LOOK to Him would save. Whosoever believes . . . (John 3:16).

    It is a confusing gospel that says one has to repent of their sins to get saved. Who can actually do this sufficiently to get saved?

    There are several variations of the "sinner's prayer." Anyone that says repent as in stop sinning is a confused gospel. Sinners are called to repent (change their mind about Jesus). Believers are called to repent (change their mind about sins).

    Same word; two definitions. It is a travesty to confuse them.

    Context rules!
    Lloyd
     
  13. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    When they said "Repent Repent" I wondered what they meant. (Leonard Cohen.)


    Anyone that calls on the name of Jesus will be saved but that must be after the gospel has been preached and explained to some degree.

    john.
     
  14. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hi Lloyd,

    Jesus says we must repent 1st..before we can truly believe.

    Matt 21
    32 "....Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

    Luke 3:3 - And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;


    Matthew 3:2 - And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


    Ezekiel 14:6 - Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

    Ezekiel 18:30 - Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

    oel 2:13 - And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil


    Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Matthew 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance

    Matthew 12:41 - The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

    Mark 6:12 - And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

    Luke 15:7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

    Luke 24:47 - And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
     
  15. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Good grief! Another BobRyan like cut and paste!

    In several of these passages repent is equated to believe. I endorse this.

    Matt 21:32
    Matthew 9:12
    Matthew 12:41 Note the preposition!
    Luke 15:7
    Luke 24:47 (Great Commission)

    However, several passage have nothing to do with justification. Instead, they deal with Israel’s call to national repentance:
    Luke 3:
    Matthew 3:2
    Ezekiel 14:6
    Ezekiel 18:30
    Matthew 4:17
    Mark 6:12
    Acts 2:38
    Acts 3:19

    You should not confuse the two definitions of “repent.”
    CONTEXT RULES!
    Lloyd
     
  16. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    The two different definitions of repent depend on CONTEXT!

    Sinners need to change their mind about Jesus. Their repentance (change of mind) results in a LOOK of faith to Jesus. Jesus taught this in John 3 using the grumbling Israelites and the brazen serpent (Num 21). John 3:16 "Whosoever believes . . .

    Believers need to change their mind about their sins. Their repentance involves confession of sin, contrition, and resolve. God cleanses from all unrighteousness. Cleansing is one of the three definitions of sanctification.

    Lloyd
     
  17. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Lloyd,


    That was low...you called me BOB??? [​IMG]


    My point Lloyd is to show God calls people to repent and change. And....this is talked about as they go tell the gospel...they go to have people Change/repent. And...Christ said...repent and believe.


    Some that only hold to believe..is using the word wrong. Believe is not just saying there is a God. Believe is believe and want to follow God and not the world. Believe means that when you call God God...that as God...you treat Him as God...and try your best to stay in His will.
    God wants you to change from your sin..and go with Him and stop going away from God. This is the full meaning of believe that is left out by many. I trust you do not leave this part out.


    In Christ..James
     
  18. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Sorry Jarthur

    That was rather low. Bob is in his own class. But I've found another (who posts at BB and who I'll not name) that make Bob look like a scholar and a gentleman.

    I endorse your post with the special notes that salvation is both justification (changing one's mind about Jesus) and sanctification (changing one's mind about sin).

    It is sort of like physical life. The baby is born (I define this as the moment of conception 9 months ahead of the normal date of birth). But no parent wants their baby to stay baby. Growth is expected after birth. No one ascribes growth to the birthing process!

    Similarly with the spiritual realm, we expect growth after birth. But is it NOW realistic to ascribe growth to the birthing process?

    Justification followed by sanctificaiton
    Lloyd
     
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