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THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION - MARY BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN???

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by rbrent, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    And in actuality the Catholic Church agrees. Without Christ Mary would have ended up in hell. But redemption does not require sin. Not one of the Angels who are in heaven ever sinned. God's plan for them did not require sin but each one needed God for salvatoin. Nothing can exist and be in God's prescence without him. Children before the age of reason do not sin. Do they still need Jesus? You bet they do. Mary's salvation can be viewed as grace preventing her from sin, just as a man seeing another about to fall in to a hole stops him. The common way of salvatoin is essentially that Christ pulls the man out of the hole.

    Blessings
     
  2. rbrent

    rbrent New Member

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    Brother Adam wrote:

    If this scriptural promise exists, I would be interested to read the scriptures which promise this infallible authority to interpret the scriptures.

    Would you be so kind as to list these scriptures please? Many thanks!
     
  3. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Well...that at least sounded kind and thoughtful so I'll answer it for you.

    The Pentacost takes place in Acts, chapter two (read one to get it in context), I won't repeat the whole thing here, since I know you have a Bible.
    Peter gives his first sermon starting in verse 14.

    The Church (obviously not being refered to as induvidual believers) is declared the foundation and pillar of Truth in 1 Timothy 3:15

    Peter is given the authority to bind and loose in Matthew 16

    Jesus tells us that those who are appointed have the authority of Christ in Luke 16

    Jesus passes his authority to the Church in Matthew 28:18-20

    We know that the apostles spoke truth in 1 John 4:6

    The church stands on solid rock in Ephesians 2:19-20

    We are told to take disagreements to the church:
    Matthew 18:15-18

    In Ephesians 5:25-27 Jesus is said to have been crucified for the santification of the church

    In Numbers 16:1-35 we learn that there is a hierarchical plan to God's faithful that must be obeyed.

    We learn that the scriptures are hard to understand and we can't always be our own authority in 2 Peter 3:16

    The authority given to Paul takes precedent over presonal interpretation in 1 Cor. 14:37-38

    Also check out Galatians 1:8 - we can't trust interpretations not endorsed by apostolic authority.

    And we see the Apostles hand down authority in Acts 6, 18:18, 2 Tim 1:7, Hebrews 6:2
     
  4. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    Hey Carson,

    Nicely put! That's a very eloquent explanation of the Church's position on original sin.

    Rbrent - that IS the position of the Catholic church. Or maybe Peter Ruckman knows better than we do? NOT! ;)

    While I agree with alot of the Church's position on original sin I don't know that it must be different for Mary than for all of us.
     
  5. Catholic Dad

    Catholic Dad Guest

    A_Christian wrote:
    Giving birth is not what determines if a woman is a virgin or not. A virgin is one who has not "had relations with" a man. Obviously, under normal circumstances, relations are necessry for a woman to become pregnant and give birth so someone who gives birth would not be a virgin. However, I think you would agree, this is not a normal circumstance. Mary conceived Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit without relations with a man. Therefore, she was a virgin when she gave birth. The act of giving birth did not change her status as a virgin.

    In Christ,
    Catholic Dad
     
  6. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi A_Christian,

    You wrote, "Fact. All sinful people die."

    Well, there we have it. Jesus was a sinner.
     
  7. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Jesus was God too. He also rose. So where does that put Him other than God?
     
  8. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

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    The problem, of course, is that you have elevated yourself to the position of a 'Pope'. And that is the problem with Protestantism, where 'every man does what is right in his own eyes.' The 'Catholic' Church (there is more than one of these, BTW) doesn't "fail to give freedom", no, it gives guidance...as Jesus mandated the Church to do.
     
  9. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

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    And if the Holy Spirit guides, as you say, then why do Calvinists, Baptists, Arminians ALL come to different conclusions on so-many things? How would a 'newcomer' to Christ decide which one is right???
     
  10. Jude

    Jude <img src=/scott3.jpg>

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    It is really quite alarming, that many here seem to want to denigrate Mary to a status that would-be ordinary. She was 'full of grace'. Would God the Son be incarnate in anyone unless they were righteous and virtuous? She HAD to have been pure...
     
  11. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    AGHHH! I'm being accused of saying more things I didn't say!!!!
     
  12. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Brother Adam,

    Look at it this way -- if you ever DO become Catholic, you'll be one step ahead. You'll already be accustomed to the sort of treatment we get all the time.

    God bless,

    Mark

    P.S. -- Although in this case, I think you could have prevented Jude's confusion by using the "quote" feature.
     
  13. Ben Mills SsBG

    Ben Mills SsBG New Member

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    Mary was a vessel created by Hashem for his/her purpose. If you read Romans chapters 8 and 9 you will see that Hashem does what he/she wants to. Nary was also no different then you or me. Just like Jesus, she was human. Jesus struggles and was tempted to sin every day of his like we are. I really wish that people would not make Mary God and only worship Hashem.
     
  14. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Hi Ben!

    I don't know any Catholic who thinks Mary is God. I have heard all Catholics teach that she is infinitely below God, like we are though. Unlike us, she was visited by an angel, declared blessed among woman, and became the vessel through which our Savior was born. So in that manner, she is special.

    You will have to forgive my ignorance in this area, but why do you refer to God as "Hashem" or "the name"?

    Are you Jewish?
     
  15. A_Christian

    A_Christian New Member

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    Jesus was God too. He also rose. So where does that put Him other than God? </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, Jesus gave up his life. No one took it from him. The ONLY reason HE died is because HE allowed it to happen. Jesus became sin for us.
     
  16. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

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    Logical fallacy detected.

    Super Type: Non Sequitur
    Sub Type: Affirming the Consequent

    Fallacy form: If A then B. B, therefore A.

    This case: All sinful people die. Jesus died, therefore he [Jesus] was a sinner.

    Conclusion that can be drawn from post: Nothing as only a fallacy was used, therefore entire post is void of meaning.
     
  17. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    Hi Jason,

    That was the point Carson was making, based on A_Christian's earlier post.

    Mark
     
  18. jasonW*

    jasonW* New Member

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    Hi Mark -

    A_Christian's original statement was:

    This statement is of the form:

    All A do b or If A, then B.

    Joseph and Mary were A [sinners], therefore they B [died].

    A_Christian's statement is actually quit different than the statement made by Carson [If someone dies, they must be a sinner].

    Whether or not A_Christians' statement is actually right is immaterial to the logical fallacy posed by Carson.

    I realize Carson was trying to "catch" A_Christian, but you cannot catch or prove someone wrong with a logical fallacy.

    jason

    PS. Enough of the going off topic. You guys may proceed ;) {Jason sits back and listens some more)
     
  19. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Jason,

    The problem with A_Christian's post is that we have neither historical evidence of Mary sinning nor Mary dying. And he can't say "She died, therefore she was a sinner," and he also can't say "She was a sinner, therefore she died."
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Bible tells us that Enoch did not see death. It tells us that Elijah was taken up to Heaven instead of dying. It does not say that about Paul and it does not say that about Mary.

    Mary calls God her savior - and so does Paul.

    Paul adds - that "ALL have sinned" - Paul argues repeatedly that ALL need Christ our Savior.

    I think we can believe God on this.

    What is even "more amazing" is that servants, and children etc are listed in the New Testament as being raised up from the dead - but Mary is not.

    And the well known "Tomb of Mary" is something that even the Catholic Church has venerated while "worshipping at her altars".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
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