First, let me say that I do not believe Scripture teaches there is "an immortal soul" in a context dealing with man's make-up. I take the view that man is a two-part being, made up of body and Spirit, and is a soul, rather than "has a soul."
I do believe that immortality is promised to those who believe, hence, when we enter into eternity, we will be "immortal souls" (persons)...
1 Corinthians 15:53
King James Version (KJV)
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
I also believe that the unsaved can be viewed as being "immortal spirits," because nowhere in Scripture do we see that spirits of men or Angels cease to exist (though as to the spirits of animals we can only speculate), quite the opposite, they too will live on forever in a state of death, which is the same death all men are born into, who are in need of the Life Jesus came to bestow upon men:
John 6:53
King James Version (KJV)
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
And I will open the discussion with those points.
God bless.
The Immortal Soul?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Darrell C, Jan 26, 2018.
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But the person is in a dormant state - their spirit has gone to God and is dormant as 1Thess 4 states. Does not matter if they are good or evil - all are dormant and Paul says in 1 Thess 4 "they have fallen asleep" -
Luke 16:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Nor do I see that all spirits go to God:
Matthew 25:44-46
King James Version (KJV)
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
We know what it means to go into everlasting punishment:
Matthew 25:41
King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
And we know that sleep is a euphemism for death:
John 11:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Now, the two errors we see in the doctrine of annihilation is that men impose into Scripture two things that is not there:
First, they make the term "soul" mean the spirit of a man, hence they read many Old Testament passages like this...
Job 7:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
...and...
Job 33:28
King James Version (KJV)
28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
...and conclude that man, when he dies, goes into a physical grave and lies there, dormant, until the resurrection.
And I hope to look at these various issues in this thread.
God bless. -
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There might be some further discussion however, on what, is believed, according to scripture, happens upon [the first] death, and the second death of any persons. For instance, some incorrectly teach that upon the first death of any person they are immediately rewarded with either eternal punishments/torments in hell/fire, or are enraptured in the joys of Heaven.
Also, there may be further discussion in regards the sustained 'life experience' / 'character' of that "spirit" which returns unto God at first death of the person. -
God bless. -
Welcome to the thread, One Baptism.
A beginning text to support that view:
John 6:48-53
King James Version (KJV)
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
The source for this life is defined by Christ as His flesh, or in other words, His dying on the Cross in the stead of the sinner. Eating of that flesh, and drinking of the blood is faith in Christ itself, and specifically in His Atoning Work.
And this subject itself deserves its own thread, though it is relevant to coming to a proper understanding of man's condition and what happens to him when he dies and is judged.
Continued... -
In this Age believers go to be with Christ in Heaven (for that is where He is):
2 Corinthians 5:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
The context in this chapter is Paul desiring, not to die, but to be glorified in the Rapture. The context is specific to what happens to men when they die.
And again, we have to carefully distinguish between what happened to men in past Ages and what takes place now that Christ has opened the Holiest of All (Heaven) that the spirits of men might come into the presence of God (and this too deserves its own thread, but again is relevant to the current discussion).
God bless. -
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However, before going into it or any other text or passages, please decide on one, and let us consider it. If you want to consider Luke 16 [KJB] in context, etc, we can.
Before moving onto a completely different text and context from Luke 16 [to 2 Corinthians 5], please choose one to look at first, then we may incorporate others as we consider the immediate context of each first.
If you want to look at 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 KJB, we can, but please choose between this and Luke 16. Otherwise we will have entirely too much on the table at once. We should go slowly, ask questions of the text, and one another, to make sure that we are coming into agreement with the text itself. The word of God is Truth [John 17:17 KJB], since JEHOVAH is eternal truth [Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalms 31:5; Isaiah 65:16; John 14:6, etc], our assertions/apriori are not necessarily so.
A question might be, Do I agree with the what the text says in its words? And my answer is, "Yes". Yet, I would supect you would say the same. Why then the two conclusions about what those words say/teach? Therein is the matter for discussion/study, to find out where either of us is incorrect, or both. Yet again, please choose one to begin with.
Also, it would be easier if it were just between you and I, instead of responding to everyone else [on both our parts], but its up to you,
Has what I said made sense so far? -
Darrell C said: ↑2 Corinthians 5:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑Darrell C said:Darrell C said: ↑
... Christ teaches a dead unbeliever in Hades in torment, and in that Age, Lazarus in "the Bosom of Abraham," a Jewish euphemism for Sheol/Hades.Click to expand...Click to expand...
Nevertheless...
Darrell C said: ↑Luke 16:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.Click to expand...
Darrell C said: ↑Christ teaches a dead unbeliever in Hades in torment, and in that Age, Lazarus in "the Bosom of Abraham," a Jewish euphemism for Sheol/Hades.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑In order to use the passage of Luke 16 in a justification for your [or my] belief, it must first be shown from the text, not simply asserted, that it teaches such.Click to expand...
;)
One Baptism said: ↑In order to determine whether the text is evidence for or against the assertion it must first be gone into in studied [prayerfully] detail, using the scriptural methods/rules which God laid out in scripture [KJB] for us.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑However, before going into it or any other text or passages, please decide on one, and let us consider it.Click to expand...
If one views the "soul" as an immaterial aspect of man, it is understandable why they would give statements concerning "souls perishing" for example, or "souls going into the pit" an eternal context. My goal is to examine that and see the temporal application and how that impacts one's understanding of Scripture as a whole.
One Baptism said: ↑If you want to consider Luke 16 [KJB] in context, etc, we can.Click to expand...
Continued... -
One Baptism said: ↑Darrell C said:Darrell C said: ↑
... [ref. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 KJB]
The context in this chapter is Paul desiring, not to die, but to be glorified in the Rapture. The context is specific to what happens to men when they die. ...Click to expand...Click to expand...
But its vital not to give others the impression a member has said something he or she hasn't said.
In regards to "assertion before evidence," this...
Darrell C said: ↑2 Corinthians 5:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Click to expand...
...cannot be made to mean anything but that we go to be with the Lord when we die.
I have given my "evidence," the burden is on you to show why Paul means something else (other than what I said it means).
One Baptism said: ↑Before moving onto a completely different text and context from Luke 16 [to 2 Corinthians 5], please choose one to look at first, then we may incorporate others as we consider the immediate context of each first.Click to expand...
And each reference given was as a counterpoint to what you have said.
One Baptism said: ↑If you want to look at 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 KJB, we can, but please choose between this and Luke 16. Otherwise we will have entirely too much on the table at once.Click to expand...
You are welcome to choose anything you want to focus on.
One Baptism said: ↑We should go slowly, ask questions of the text, and one another, to make sure that we are coming into agreement with the text itself.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑The word of God is Truth [John 17:17 KJB], since JEHOVAH is eternal truth [Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalms 31:5; Isaiah 65:16; John 14:6, etc], our assertions/apriori are not necessarily so.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑A question might be, Do I agree with the what the text says in its words? And my answer is, "Yes". Yet, I would supect you would say the same. Why then the two conclusions about what those words say/teach? Therein is the matter for discussion/study, to find out where either of us is incorrect, or both. Yet again, please choose one to begin with.Click to expand...
Secondly is the failure to see "sleep" as a euphemism for death, hence some see "souls sleeping in graves" means the spirits of men and women reside in graves when they die, rather than going to be with the Lord (if they are saved) or going to Hades (if they are lost) when they die.
That is the focus of the thread.
Continued... -
One Baptism said: ↑Darrell C said:Darrell C said: ↑
... And again, we have to carefully distinguish between what happened to men in past Ages and what takes place now that Christ has opened the Holiest of All (Heaven) that the spirits of men might come into the presence of God (and this too deserves its own thread, but again is relevant to the current discussion). ..Click to expand...
There are assertions being made [though behind them are scripture references, but I cannot aford to assume where you are drawing from], without evidence again.Click to expand...
This statement is something that I am fully prepared to support, so if this, or anything I say demands further explanation, just let me know, I will be glad to give a post dedicated to whatever it is you would like clarified.
I will do this now, since you seem to be asking...
First, I have given Luke 16 which shows the Lord teaching two men who died going somewhere other than Heaven. The rich man in Hades, which is commonly known to refer to the place of the dead, a Greek term and concept that parallels the Old Testament's concept of Hades (and this is affirmed by Christ because He uses the term in His teaching.
The rich man into "Abraham's bosom," which not so well known, but a Jewish Euphemism for "the side of the two-part Sheol/Hades where the Just reside." That is from Jewish tradition and therefore not a Biblical concept, but again we see the Lord Himself teaching the concept and it agrees with the traditional belief that was held.
Either way, we do not see either the spirit ceasing to exist (as the Sadducees believed happened, an error addressed by the Lord (Matthew 22:29)), or "sleeping" as it is taught to mean, as in the taking of rest, rather than being a euphemism for death, which is another error the Lord clarified to His disciples in the case of Lazarus, which I will give the Scripture for:
John 11:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Going back to whether men entered into the presence of God in the Old Testament, just a few passages to consider:
Hebrews 9:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
The Holy of Holies of the earthly Tabernacle was a figure, a parable of the True Holy of Holies. The way into the Holiest of All was not made manifest while that one was still standing, meaning, as long as the Covenant of Law was in effect the way into the Holiest of All was not open to men.
Now let's see the Writer define the Holiest of All:
Hebrews 9:23-24
King James Version (KJV)
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
He (the Writer) is not done yet:
Hebrews 10:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
The point being that the High Priest of Levitical Service was the only man allowed to "enter into God's presence," and this only in the earthly Holy Place (the second Chamber of the Tabernacle). And this...only once a year. And that Priest offered up sacrifice which could not make the comer thereunto perfect (complete), or take away sins (Hebrews 10:1-4).
But Christ has entered into the Holiest of All through the offering of Himself, and opened the way for men to come into the presence of God when they die. That is why Paul states that if we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord.
One more:
Hebrews 6:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
The "forerunner" is the concept of a small boat going into harbor with a line to secure the larger ship. Christ has entered into "that within the veil," which is GOd's presence in Heaven.
Continued... -
One Baptism said: ↑Cart before horse. I do not mean to tire anyone with this repetition,Click to expand...
;)
One Baptism said: ↑but it is happening each time.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑Slowly, please. I do not jump to your conclusions, because I do not begin with your assertions, nor apriori. I read the same words, but come to differing conclusions based upon what those very words in the scriptural references mean,Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑as they are defined in scripture itself, according to its own internal rules.Click to expand...
Scripture is the best commentary on Scripture.
One Baptism said: ↑Darrell C said:Darrell C said: ↑
... That is in fact the purpose of this thread. To show that through some minor errors in understanding, some have embraced Annihilation and Soul Sleep. ...Click to expand...Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑and even the two passages thus mentioned [without any study therein]Click to expand...
We see the lord teach a conscious afterlife, and we see Paul teach that believers go to be with the Lord when they die. There is simply no other way to interpret "...to be absent from the body (dead, in the context) is to be present with the Lord.
One Baptism said: ↑so far, I agree with 100% and are not detrimental in the least to those two teachings/beliefs/doctrines.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑Presently, I have seen assertion before demonstration and evidence.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑Not attempting to be harsh or unkind in any way.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑I love the idea of the thread to discuss/study the scripture together, and that you have invited me and asked me to do that with yourself, but the practice part of it is missing so far.Click to expand...
Keep in mind that most of what has been said already was for the purpose of stirring up the conversation. Again, we needed some direction to go in, and there was enough for anyone who embraces Soul Sleep or Annihilation to refute.
We have only just begun. We have not even begun to look at the focus of the OP, which deals with the primary error, which is the belief "souls are destroyed."
This is a great study, and quite a bit of fun as well, though it also takes quite a bit of work for both sides.
Continued... -
One Baptism said: ↑Darrell C said:Darrell C said: ↑
...Whereas I will present a Scriptural Basis for the view that all men will live eternally, though unbelievers will do so in the same state of death and separation they are born into, whereas believers (and the Just of the Old Testament will live on and actually have eternal life, because they are indwelt eternally by God, Who is Eternal Life.
God bless.Click to expand...Click to expand...
So we can begin with either of those if you like, or, a passage you feel supports Annihilation. I leave that choice to you.
One Baptism said: ↑So far, both Luke 16 and 2 Corinthians 5 have been cited, but not studied together.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑To simply assert that they provide evidence for your theological belief [as you say], is not real evidence that they do so.Click to expand...
One Baptism said: ↑Also, it would be easier if it were just between you and I, instead of responding to everyone else [on both our parts], but its up to you,Click to expand...
That won't interfere with our own discussion, my friend.
One Baptism said: ↑Has what I said made sense so far?Click to expand...
But I don't assume to make demands of how a discussion must go, I'd rather leave it up to those I am having a discussion with, so if you want to respond to one of the passages in the OP that is fine, or give a supporting text for your view, that is fine also.
God bless. -
Darrell C said: ↑I don't see a dormant state here...
Luke 16:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Nor do I see that all spirits go to God:
Click to expand...
Don't look in parables for that doctrine. that would be step 1.
Look in John 11 and 1 Thess 4 for the "dormant state" of the soul between death and the resurrection.
Darrell C said: ↑Matthew 25:44-46
King James Version (KJV)
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Click to expand...Darrell C said: ↑We know what it means to go into everlasting punishment:Click to expand... -
BobRyan said: ↑When a person dies the body is decaying - the body is returning to dust.
But the person is in a dormant state - their spirit has gone to God and is dormant as 1Thess 4 states. Does not matter if they are good or evil - all are dormant and Paul says in 1 Thess 4 "they have fallen asleep"Click to expand...
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. -
BobRyan said: ↑Don't look in parables for that doctrine. that would be step 1.Click to expand...
And don't say "The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus." lol
Even if one considers it a parable, even parables teach truths, not fiction.
BobRyan said: ↑Look in John 11 and 1 Thess 4 for the "dormant state" of the soul between death and the resurrection.Click to expand...
You give this...
BobRyan said: ↑1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.Click to expand...
...dead.
He's not talking about those who are asleep and those who are dead, lol. both are the same. That he uses the term sleep is nothing new, and no different than Christ using it here:
John 11:11-14
King James Version (KJV)
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
"Sleep" is a euphemism for death, just as we might say someone has "passed away."
So look at your proof text again:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
"Sleep" refers to them being dead. The context is one of physical resurrection. A dormant state is imposed in the text and in conflict with Paul's teaching that those who are in Christ are present with the Lord if they are absent from the body:
2 Corinthians 5:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
"A dormant state" is the exact opposite of what Paul teaches. You are teaching we are absent from the Lord when we are in the body (alive), and absent from the Lord when we are dead.
Now unless you want to say that the Lord is still in the grave (which is also contrary to Scripture), then you are going to have to cede this point and strike this proof text from your routine.
BobRyan said: ↑Lasts for ever... the punishment will last... not the punishINGClick to expand...
Jude 8-13
King James Version (KJV)
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
2 Peter 2:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
Tell that to Christ:
Matthew 25:41
King James Version (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Christ does not define Hell as something that ends...
Mark 9:43-44
King James Version (KJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Tell it to John:
Revelation 14:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Kind of hard to see cessation of torment when John quotes the Angel saying the smoke of their torment ascends forever. And you know what they say, my friend...
...where there's smoke...there's fire.
One more, then I have to get going:
Revelation 20:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Now what's interesting about this statement is that the Beast and false prophet were cast into Hell, the lake of fire and brimstone which the Lord refers to quite often...
...a thousand years earlier.
Now I ask you, do you really think that God places them in hell yet they are the only two humans who suffer the vengeance of Eternal Fire (Jude 1:7)?
Scripture just does not present that teaching:
Revelation 20:14-15
King James Version (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Good night and...
God bless. -
Thank you for your time. This thread is not suited for study as I previously thought. I would rather not waste your or my time.
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Darrell C said: ↑Its not a parable. Show me a parable that uses actual names of persons we know had lived.Click to expand...
2. It includes prayers to the dead and has Abraham - not God - as the sovereign of all Heaven
3. R.C Sproul and others freely admit it is a Parable -- and they do believe in immortal soul false doctrine
Darrell C said: ↑Its not a parable. Show me a parable that uses actual names of persons we know had lived.
And don't say "The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus." lol
Even if one considers it a parable, even parables teach truths, not fiction.Click to expand...
2. In Luke 16 Christ said "the truth taught" by the parable is "if they will not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from the dead".
3. Even in the parable - no communication with the living is possible apart from bodily resurrection.
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