1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Intellectual Problem of Evil Syllogism

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Brian_K, May 7, 2019.

  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,494
    Likes Received:
    874
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No doubt there was truth in this post. Much of it, if not all, the typical Calvinist would agree.

    The difficulty is that where you present that evil did not completely corrupt every aspect of creation especially humankind and the nature of humankind, some see the problem of evil as being totally corrupting. That one fly makes the whole batch worthless.

    Just as sin entered this world through Adam, and as a result all are unrighteous, such condition does not conform to your presentations of people desiring to "enter" and other problematic posts suggesting that the human nature has some innate ability to choose.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    19,258
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another straight up denial of scripture. Total Spiritual Inability has been shown to be invalid time and time again. Why, in Matthew 13 did Jesus speak in parables? To prevent people from responding to God, because the timing was not right. If Total Spiritual Inability were true, Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables. Then in Romans 11, God hardens the hearts of unbelieving Jews to facilitate the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles. And once again, God would not have needed to harden hearts with total spiritual inability were true. And of course we have Matthew 23:13 were people were in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven, thus demonstrating that they had some spiritual ability. On and on scripture teaches the fallen have limited spiritual ability, they can understand and respond to spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, but cannot understand spiritual solid food, because that can only be discerned with the help of our indwelt Holy Spirit.
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,494
    Likes Received:
    874
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Van, why did Matthew write what we title Matthew?

    Who was his target audience?

    You make all kinds of claims because you do not keep the focus upon the audience of Matthew and assume that presentation is relevant without the context to your scheme.

    It is not.

    Therefore, your scheme is faulty.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    19,258
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Scripture means what it says.
    Denial is futile.
    The old dodge (you have taken it out of context) is simply false.

    Total Spiritual Inability has been shown to be invalid time and time again.

    Why, in Matthew 13, did Jesus speak in parables? To prevent people from responding to God, because the timing was not right. If Total Spiritual Inability were true, Jesus would not have needed to speak in parables.

    Then, in Romans 11, God hardens the hearts of unbelieving Jews to facilitate the spread of the gospel to the Gentiles. And once again, God would not have needed to harden hearts with total spiritual inability were true.

    And of course we have Matthew 23:13 where people were in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven, thus demonstrating that they had some spiritual ability. On and on scripture teaches the fallen have limited spiritual ability, they can understand and respond to spiritual milk, (1 Corinthians 3:1) the fundamentals of the gospel, but cannot understand spiritual solid food, because that can only be discerned with the help of our indwelt Holy Spirit.
     
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,494
    Likes Received:
    874
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Totally your opinion, not a valid statement because it is unsupportable.


    Really, you take what shows total spiritual inability of certain places the seed lands and construct some myth of spiritual ability? Really?

    Who is in charge of the earth?
    Who determines the preparation of the good earth?
    What is the ONLY soil in which the seed grew to harvest?

    NOT any other place the seed landed displayed even the slightest "spiritual ability."

    Lest some reader consider that the stony or shallow weed infested ground had ability, do not neglect what every student of biology 101 knows, seeds have life in themselves, survive for a short time as the nourish from themselves, but do not survive without the good earth.

    The parable of Matthew 13 shows that without the preparation and appointment by God that conforms the recipient into good earth, the seed sown has no impact for there is no innate righteous spiritual ability.

    Again, the thinking is unsupportable.

    Romans 11:
    1I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!...
    2God has not rejected his people whom he FOREKNEW. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
    Again, this supports the Jewish concept of attaining eternal presence with God. It was ONCE on the basis of sacrifice and offerings, but no longer. You miss the mark because you do not take into account the huge shift from Temple worship priority to that of Grace.

    Contenting with Romans 11:
    11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

    25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

    What you want to take as proof of the daily ability of folks to self will themselves to enter and are prevented by others in offering the hardening of the Jews, is just not supported in this passage. Not even alluded to in this passage.

    One reading Pauls statement recognizes that such is the condition for the benefit of the Gentile, that when the Gentile time is drawing to a close, God (as the prophets declared) does regather the people into their home, puts the laws back in their hearts, and so forth.

    It is all at the pleasure and purpose of God, NOT of human ability not freedom of choice or any other such nonsense.

    The presentation you offer is a one desperately clinging to an aberration of no substance.

    Totally wrong!

    Because you do not take advantage of learning the truth, and although the refutation has been tediously laid before you on all these passages, and yet you obstinately cling to that which is error and do not present the truth of these passages, I suggest you quit so you do not embarrass yourself further.

    That may sound so very harsh, but you puff yourself up as refuting a scheme that you cannot, you claim that the scheme and those who present are in error, yet when shown the foundational facts do not support you, you do not recant.

    Perhaps it is that you have become one who does not because they cannot irrespective of the many and often shared principles of Scriptures shared by myself and others concerning your failed scheme.

    I only give warnings and responses that the casual reader of the BB might not be swayed by the misuse of the Scriptures.

    Fundamentally flawed leads to disastrous consequences.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    19,258
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You wasted a lot of electrons to say "taint so."

    Why did Jesus need to prevent understanding by using parables? Because fallen people have limited spiritual ability.

    Why did God need to harden the hearts on unbelieving Jews to facilitate the spread of the gospel to Gentiles? Because fallen people have limited spiritual ability.

    How were people in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven unless they had some spiritual ability?

    Total Spiritual Inability has once again been shown to be as bogus as a three dollar bill.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    19,258
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Post #13 Reset

    The same "Problem of Evil" canard is posted every few months.

    And as pointed out above the attribute of God always treating his creation with beneficence is a fiction.

    Why does God allow evil to exist? First the calamity brought to His creation by the environment is caused by God This harsh environment serves to facilitate people seeking God as a refuge.

    But what about the evil that comes from people sinning? Why does God allow that? God's purpose in creation was to choose a people for His own possession. People that love God. And in order for people to choose God, they must also have the capacity to choose sin. A choice of one option is not a choice.

    But what about the Fall, where people were not only able to choose sin, they were corrupted and predisposed to choose sin. Why did God allow or bring about the Fall? Remember when God made Gideon's army smaller to increase the glory of God's victory? The Fall makes our repentance bring more glory to God.

    In summary, the "Problem of Evil" is a canard.
     
  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,494
    Likes Received:
    874
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Taint so
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    19,258
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Post #13 Reset

    The same "Problem of Evil" canard is posted every few months.

    And as pointed out above the attribute of God always treating his creation with beneficence is a fiction.

    Why does God allow evil to exist? First the calamity brought to His creation by the environment is caused by God This harsh environment serves to facilitate people seeking God as a refuge.

    But what about the evil that comes from people sinning? Why does God allow that? God's purpose in creation was to choose a people for His own possession. People that love God. And in order for people to choose God, they must also have the capacity to choose sin. A choice of one option is not a choice.

    But what about the Fall, where people were not only able to choose sin, they were corrupted and predisposed to choose sin. Why did God allow or bring about the Fall? Remember when God made Gideon's army smaller to increase the glory of God's victory? The Fall makes our repentance bring more glory to God.

    In summary, the "Problem of Evil" is a canard.
     
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,494
    Likes Received:
    874
    Faith:
    Baptist
    For those who do not know what a canard is (other than an appendage on an airplane) it is an unfounded myth, a false or unfounded story line.

    What is not false is that evil is more a verb than a noun.

    Though used in sentences as a noun, evil is the catalyst, the motivator, the impetus in which disruption and other ill emerge.

    God uses even creates calamity (evil) in the heavens and earth for His own purpose.

    More often the "why" questions ask by humankind are because human intellect cannot perceive the heart and mind, the motivating factors and intellectual determinations as God can. So, often, human frail and faulty reasoning results in attempts to either blame or excuse some allowed or direct action by God.

    Choice has very little to do with evil or good. Such thinking is often pictured as the mad dog and good dog, and the one feed thrives, or the good angel and bad angel whispering in the ear.

    This is a hard teaching and many if not most will seek all manner of excuse against it. Human choice is not a determiner when it comes to the command of God over evil and good.

    The Scriptures present this statement by Solomon concerning evil:
    1But all this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God. Whether it is love or hate, man does not know; both are before him. 2It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath. 3This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
    What does this passage present?
    That humankind experience both good and evil. None escape. Good happens and evil happens to all. In verse one, it is not humanly determined nor understood if tragedy comes from love or hate. It is the same for all, it comes.

    As a result the end is death.

    Solomon records this profound truth. "...the hearts of the children of man are full of evil and madness is in their hearts while they live..."

    There is no "choice" in which prevents or circumstances are thwarted both evil and good.

    Jonah was sent to Nineveh. Did the repentance do good? Certainly, but eventually Nineveh was destroyed as God commanded. The human choice did not prevent the command.

    When humankind read the Scriptures, they often may see retribution being used. It is assumed that such is because poor choices are made, and if good choices were made then one would not experience evil. Wrong thinking. For God determines matters according to His good pleasure and will, and not according to ours. Ultimately, the war is not about flesh and blood, but spiritual as Paul writes:
    12For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.​


    The most common example is Job. God condoned calamity, for a specific purpose that humankind did not comprehend.

    Consider the crucifixion. Isaiah states, "...we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted..."

    Yet, we (believers) now understand why such took place.

    Here is a principle of Scriptures to help and respond with the words, "It pleased God ..."

    God is always good, even in permitting and commanding calamity of human experience, God is always good.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    19,258
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Another canard is exhaustive determinism, that our choices do not alter outcomes. God sets before us the choice of life or death, not life only for some and death only for the rest. That is a perversion.

    Does trusting in Christ ensure our remaining life on earth will be without calamity, or suffering or the death of our loved ones? Nope But our choice, if credited as righteousness by God does ensure our salvation and eternal life with God.
     
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,494
    Likes Received:
    874
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here one sees straying, drifting, into what is not supported by Scripture.

    Do not believe one’s that teach that death is a choice. Such is a denial of John 1, John 3:17-18, Romans 6:23,

    Do not believe one’s that teach life is a choice. Such is a denial of 1 John 5:11-12, 2 Corinthians 2:14-17, Ephesians 3:7-11.

    Such thinking and teaching of choice is a perversion.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    19,258
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    None of the verses cites support the premise that our choices cannot alter the outcome of our lives.

    Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

    Do not believe the ones that deny scripture.

    2 Corinthians 5:20
    Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

    The choice to believe the gospel is ours, the choice to credit our faith as righteousness is God's.
    Choice is found throughout scripture.

    Do not believe the ones that deny scripture.
     
    #93 Van, Jul 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,494
    Likes Received:
    874
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Intellectual " choice does not change the heart. Look at the history. Did the intellectual choice determine anything?

    NOPE.

    Do not believe the ones that deny Scriptures, but also do not believe ones that try to support what is unsound doctrines by using misapplication of Scriptures.


    Just as you highlighted, but seemed to ignore, WE beg on behalf of Christ. WE are the ambassadors for Christ.

    Christ is not a beggar, nor an ambassador.

    He is the King of kings, and all authority is given to Him. Therefore, we as ambassadors can warn, beg, plead, persuade (v.11), ... because we know the terror of the Lord is sure.

    When Christ was standing looking at the city from the hill top, gave this command concerning Israel.
    "How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
    God is neither a beggar nor an ambassador.

    Intellectual decisions are not salvation. This is proven by history and the anecdotal presentations in Scripture.

    So why do WE go out as ambassadors to attempting to persuade. Because it is God's will and plan for how the Gospel will be communicated and how His Spirit will actively bring those of God's selection to Him. Not intellectually, but by becoming a new creation as the passage of 2 Corinthians states believers are.

    Do not believe the ones that deny Scriptures, but also do not believe ones that try to support what is unsound doctrines by using misapplication of Scriptures.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    19,258
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There does not appear that any verse means what it says.
    God sets before us a choice. But Calvinism says it is a non-choice, life for some, death for the rest.
    God asks us to be reconciled to God by choosing to trust fully in Christ. But Calvinism says we can take no action that would facilitate being reconciled to God.

    Verse after verse is rewritten to alter the message, going from opportunity for salvation to futility. What a waste!
     
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,494
    Likes Received:
    874
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Prove that I have EVER on the BB rewritten a single passage of Scripture to alter the message.

    It is truly sad that your view does not stand Scriptural scrutiny, yet you desperately cling to your view with nothing but shade and phantom for support.

    For example, You claim God asks us to be reconciled. Yet, the passage you offer for support declares no such thing!

    Who is doing the rewriting! It certainly isn’t me.

    Perhaps you?
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    19,258
    Likes Received:
    625
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sir, I am pretty sure it is the inventors of Calvinism that have redefined words, such as adoption, foreknew, draw, predestination, and so forth.

    2 Corinthians 5:20
    Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

    The choice to believe the gospel is ours, the choice to credit our faith as righteousness is God's.
    Choice is found throughout scripture.

    Do not believe the ones that deny scripture.
     
Loading...