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Featured The just and the justifier

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Mar 19, 2018.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Scripture teaches that God's wrath is against all unrighteousness. It is not against sinful actions but "sin" as Paul typically uses the term (principle, wickedness). It is against the sinner, the unrighteous l, the unjust (which excludes Christ). I just don't see why you can't accept the plain words of Scripture, Martin.

    Do you believe that Christ's obedience, suffering and death, apart from bearing God's wrath, sufficient a price to redeem man (i.e., except Christ bear man's punishment, is He enough to justify God forgiving us)?
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    So you believe that God's wrath is against sin, whereas I believe it's against sin. Right! I agree! Confused
    You tried this one before. :rolleyes: It's a hypothetical question. Christ did bear man's punishment (Isaiah 53:5).
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    While
    upon that Cross, Jesus assumed/took on the sins of His own people, and so as the Sin bearer, the Father dealt with Him in the same manner as all lost sinners will be in judgement. God NEVER ceased seeing Jesus as His beloved, but he dealt with Him as the sin bearer there, and so he indeed experienced the outpouring of the wrath on Him from God due to Him being seen as now in our place before Holy God.
     
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  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    [/QUOTE]
    Apart from the PST theory, just how is the wrath of God against sin, and appeasement for that sin satisfied and made propitiated for then?
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I believe God's wrath is against the unrighteous. And I believe God to be righteous. I do not, therefore, believe that God poured His wrath upon Christ.

    Why do you reject the plain meaning of Scripture? The righteous will not suffer God's wrath. God will not convict the just. Period. No need to twist and wring it to fit a theory. It means what it says.

    It is only a hypothetical question to you because you assume God wrathful towards Christ. BUT Scripture speaks much of God's nature and human nature.

    Do you believe that Christ's death, based on Christ's nature, excluding bearing God's wrath, sufficient a price to redeem man?

    It is a fair question. Martin Luther answered "absolutely" when he declared that by Christ's divine nature He outweighed the wrath and sin against us. The early church discerned this truth by appealing to what Peter called a price greater than gold and silver. I wonder why you find it too difficult to ponder.

    I suspect it is because your theory elevates man and downgrades Christ's nature to a degree unheard of prior to its invention.
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Romans 1:18. 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men.......' God wrath is against unrighteousness and ungodliness, aka sin. But sin does not exist where there are no sinners. Your dichotomy is a false one.
    No. It is because the Biblical Doctrine of Penal Substitution exalts God's righteousness and justice as well as His love. 'The LORD is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will magnify the law and make it honourable.' It also exalts and magnifies the perfect obedience and love to sinners of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have no problem with Luther's statement--none at all. I have a problem with your rider to it. The death of Christ outside of Penal Substitution makes no sense, as Luther knew perfectly well.

    Also, to say that the Doctrine of Penal Substitution 'exalts man' and 'downgrades Christ's nature' is grossly untrue (to use no stronger term) and I hope you will stop repeating it unless you can substantiate it from the Scriptures or show where I have exalted man in my posts. You fall all too easily into these cheap shots when you run out of arguments, and that is not fitting for a moderator.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I can substiantiate it by both reason and Scripture. Scripture (throught, OT &NT) teaches that if a person or nation repents and turns to God, He is faithful to forgive them their sins. It is the people/nations that are forgiven their sins.

    Logic agrees. One cannot punish an action except in the context of punishing the source of the action.

    Did you ever decide whether Christ's death based on His nature instead of your punishment is enough to pay for your sins?
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Only if you fail to quote the Scriptures accurately. 'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins......'
    'That He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'
    That is why, right from Genesis 3, there had to be sacrifice before there was forgiveness (Hebrews 9:22). With the death and resurrection of Christ, there is one perfect acceptable sacrifice for all time, so that it need never be repeated, but the principle remains. Christ has taken away His people's sins by paying the penalty for them in full. Isaiah 43:25 (for example) is predicated on the work of the Servant, otherwise there is no reason for Christ to have come at all.
    Unless the Christ had a perfect human nature, He would have been unsuitable as a redeemer at all (Leviticus 2:21). Did you ever consider that if Christ's perfect nature is sufficient He need not have died at all? He could have come to earth, lived His life of total obedience and righteousness on our behalf and then have gone back into heaven. But what then of God's justice? God declares, "I will not justify the wicked." 'By no means clearing the guilty.' Christ's suffering and death are sufficient to redeem all who come to God through Him, 'Because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many.'
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Great example.

    You have strung a bunch of passages together and declared yourself right based not on those passages (what they say or teach) but on your theory. This is what I have been pointing out all along. You are trying to use verses to support your theory instead of allowing Scripture to dictate your belief. Just accept the plain teachings of Scripture. God's wrath never rests on the righteous.
     
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    :Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao This is an epic case of the pot calling the kettle black. You vaguely cited a verse of Scripture, conveniently leaving a part of it out because it doesn't fit your philosophy. Marcion would be proud of you! It is you who is trying (unsuccessfully) to mold the Scriptures to fit your viewpoint.
    Indeed it doesn't. But Christ was made sin so that God's righteous anger against sin and sinners might rest upon His sinless shoulders instead of ours. Praise God for Christ made sin for us! (2 Corinthians 5:21). Praise God for Christ taking the curse upon sin and sinners to Himself for us! (Galatians 3:13). No hope without these two great Biblical truths!
     
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was NOT suffering the wrath of God based upon himself, as he was/is the sinless Son of God, but he became the sin bearer for His own, and so took in our place what we all deserved!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Martin is actually using those scriptures to prove the point that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins, and God wrath has to have a target in order to be propitiated.
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ahhh...distraction.

    NO ONE is denying that Christ bore our sins, became a curse for us, became sin for us, propitiated God's wrath on our behalf, that the chastisement for our well being fell upon Him, or that by His stripes we are healed.

    What has been challenged is the extra-biblical theory you introduce. Why can't you just accept the plain teachings of Scripture? The righteous will never suffer God's wrath. Period.

    And still....you have claimed that the Theory of Penal Substitution holds a high a view of God, but you still can't seem to decide if the early church was correct in believing Christ's death sufficient a price for man except it include man's punishment. I'm amazed at your indecisiveness here. Christ's death outweighed any wrath and sin that faced us. He is God!

    Why can't you just accept the plain teaching of Scripture and set aside these theories? Are you really that much invested in extra-biblical theory?
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was sinless, and yet was to God chief sinner at same time!
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Are you suggesting that God condemned Christ as a sinner even though He was righteous (something Scripture calls an "abomination to God")?

    Break it down-

    Does Scriprure say it is an abomination to God to convict the righteous? YES.

    Does Scripture say Jesus is God's Righteous One? YES.

    Are you saying God convicted Jesus as a sinner? Sadly, yes.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No one is denying that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. No one is denying that Christ propitiated God's wrath. If @Martin Marprelate is going there then he has bigger problems as it's old common ground.

    What I have rejected is his theory that God accomplished that by pouring His wrath upon Christ. The reason I am rejecting the theory is that I find it both "un" and "anti" biblical. It is not only an addition to Scripture but it denies what is actually written.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus became sin for us before the father, as when God viewed Him upon that Cross, did not see Jesus, but our sins upon Him!
    Jesus always remained sinless and pure, but while on the Cross, to God was the sin bearer of mankind.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the wrath of God is to be poured out upon this earth, and upon the lost, see revelation, correct?
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Scripture states....outright states....your theory could never happen because of God's faithfulness.
    Not upon the righteous (per Scripture, not your theory). That's one of many places where your theory falls apart.

    I guess you and @Martin Marprelate have to decide - believe your theory or the plain teaching of Scripture).
     
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    But the Righteous will suffer God's curse (Galatians 3:13). Think about it.
    You are missing the point. God's righteous anger is against sinners. If Christ has not borne it on our behalf, we must bear it ourselves. This is quite apart from the merits of Christ.
    And you need to turn down the heat. The Doctrine of Penal Substitution is clearly taught in Scripture and you getting in a tizzy about it is not going to change that. Thousands of better men than you or I have believed that, and you are just making a fool of yourself by claiming that they were all 'invested in extra-biblical theory.'
     
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