1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

THE KINGDOM, Have you not read?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by JohnBaskette, Oct 28, 2004.

  1. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    7,504
    Likes Received:
    62
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Luke 16:9 seems to imply otherwise, Michelle. Some are too quick to cut people off after short amounts of time, unable to spiritually handle working with those who aren't saved. I had to work and befriend one man and his wife for several years, though they lived ungodly lifestyles, for nearly 16 years before they came to Christ. I didn't separate from them, nor did I shun them. They knew I didn't approve of many things they did, so they didn't bring them up or push them on me or my wife. Sometimes Christians are far too quick to use OT references to justify their NT style of soulwinning, and for me, it just doesn't cut the mustard. It might be fine for you and many others, but I'm not one who gives up so easily on people, saved or unsaved. Those who are weaker in the faith still SHOULD probably separate from these people, as there is potential that they will fall away from God. Others who are stronger in the faith and have more patience should do what they feel the Lord leading them to do.
     
  2. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    JohnBaskette said no one uses scripture, but when I gave many scripture verses in the "LOF" thread, I did not get any serious reconciliation between this "kingdom truth" cultic nonsense and what scripture clearly tells us. So here are a few more scriptures. Please John, Lacy, et al, just provide discernment/reconciliation using scriptures to bring these verses in line with your false premise that some believers will spend time in hell.

    Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:17-19

    Who does God not count their sins against? ANSWER: "anyone in Christ."

    Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” Romans 4:4-8

    I don't understand how anyone can read the above with spiritual discernment and make the claims you "kingdom truth" folks do! To the man who does not work but believes, is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account! That is as clear as it gets!

    And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:27-28

    John, Lacy, et al, can you read the bold part?

    then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet.

    For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And on their mind I will write them,” He then says, “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. Hebrews 10:9-18

    The old, repetitious sacrificial system was removed to make way for the new, once-for-all sacrifice of Christ. This sacrifice established forgiveness. Who receives this forgiveness? The sanctified. What is forgiven? "sins for all time." (that means past, present, and future sins committed by believers) Who is sanctified? The one who believes, not the one who works!

    Now the one who believes receives the gift of the Holy Spirit and it is He who produces good works, working in and through us. These good works are the fruit of the Spirit, evidence of salvation, not a "works" to obtain it.

    Sorry but the "kingdom truth" spin that works are necessary to avoid hell is completely unbiblical. You deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and make a mockery of much of the New Testament scriptures.
     
  3. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where do these verses fit into your idea of salvation, John?

    Hebrews 10
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    1 Corinthians 3
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    The idea that God does not hold Christians accountable for sin is unbiblical. We are saved for all eternity, based on the work of Jesus on the cross. So why should we be allowed to spit on His blood and walk all over Him?

    Hebrews 6
    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Hebrews 10:29
    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Unless you believe that a Christian can lose his salvation (which seems to be the majority opinion around here these days) then you must reconcile these scriptures with free grace eternal salvation.
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The biggest problem IMO of much of Bible believing Christianity is the definition of "separation".

    Think about who Jesus separated Himself from and who were his "friends".

    Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

    Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

    HankD
     
  5. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    James,

    They fit right smack dab at the heart of my salvation. As usual, you throw down some scriptures without addressing mine. Do you gloss over that God says ALL OUR SINS are forgiven. We have been redeemed. We have been justified. Do you understand the legal ramifications of "justified" James? You don't justify someone and then punish them. Until you address the scriptural evidence I have presented, should I do you the honor of addressing yours? We are at an impasse! I do have answers to yours, BTW! [​IMG] Now James, John, Lacy, et al, please address my references and explain to me (particularly the bold parts) that those words really mean something other than what they clearly seem to mean to me!
     
  6. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes Hank! And therein lies the problem with the scriptures James uses. They speak to and of unbelievers and not believers.

    It might help my deterants to know that I am not an "easy believism" advocate. True believers have to have repented and turned from their old lives (slaves to sin) to the new creation they have become (slaves to righteousness). This does not mean they become perfect, but as their sanctification is worked out, they should grow more and more Christ-like until death. However, their decreasing instances of sin are covered by the blood of Jesus, who paid the blood sacrifice debt for them, and with that debt having been paid, God will not require further payment of debts already PAID IN FULL!

    The problem is, we mix up the behavior of false believers among us with the ocassionally sinning true believer, as well as scriptures intended for them and not for true believers.
     
  7. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good post Michelle, now might I add it might be a little nice if you would re-read what you just posted and put it into application in your posts. [​IMG]
     
  8. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    The last post got out of place somehow, I was reading Michelle's post at the top of the page--refer back to it. Sorry, can't edit it now.
     
  9. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with you pretty much, but I do believe there are Christians who have had some sort of hard-ships that have caused them to stop growing--if you don't grow, you slip backwards. Just because a person sins, and does not continue to grow "all of the time" it does not mean that they are not always lost. Often growth is, forward a while, devil attacks, backwards, forward some more, devil attacks, backwards, etc.

    The second thing I wanted to mention may be just a misunderstanding on my part, but on the first part of this you seem to be referring to a person who changes Himself into a new creature by acting a certain way. I don't think you intended it to be that way, because as I think we agree, the presence of Christ makes the change. [​IMG]
     
  10. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't mean to gloss over your scriptures brother, I thought my position was pretty well stated. I am OSAS Easy Believist when it comes to eternal salvation.

    I believe that those scriptures mean exactly what they say, as far as we have forgiveness of ALL our sins in an eternal sense. I believe that because of the price Jesus paid on the Cross, I will be raised up on the last day regardless of any sins in my life. I believe that I could take a steak knife to Billy Graham and cut him into little pieces if I were so inclined, and Jesus paid for it.

    I will try to address your concerns.

    2Cor 5
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Amen! I would hate to have my trespasses imputed to myself, because then I would go to the lake of fire, like all the other people who don't believe that Jesus died for their sins and are trying to work their way to heaven. But we are not just forgiven, we are also created a new creature...

    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Yes indeed, justified by faith. My sins are covered by the blood of Christ!

    Heb 9
    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Unto them that look for him... Hmmm, any way Yes, amen.

    We have been sanctified, He was offered for our sins. All this I agree with. So what are you trying to say? That you will not answer for the sins that you decide to hold on to after receiving the knowledge of the truth? I'm telling you that I believe that nothing in the universe that you or anyone else can do will ever cause you to lose your salvation, because you didn't earn your salvation. It is the gift of God to those who believe. How am I denying the sufficiency of Christ's atonement?
     
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree, the wheat and the tares, as Jesus said, will continue together until the harvest.

    HankD
     
  12. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tares and wheat recognition is not the problem at all. Millenial exclusionist know good and well what the difference is between a saved person and an unsaved person. The problem with the "false believer" (Whatever that means) theory is this: Does a "false believer" get saved by "not sinning willfully" (Heb 10:26,27), or by not "defiling the temple of God" (I Co 3:16), or by wrestling or by striving against sin, or by forgiving his brother, or etc? If not then those verses cannot apply to him.

    I bekieve a sinner gets saved by believng in the finished work of Christ. (John 3:16)Period. Plus nothing. Verses that apply to salvation apply to salvation. (Imagine that!) Verses that apply to chastening of a saved person have nothing to do with getting saved. You cannot use the "paid for sin" scriptures to overthrow the concept of paternal chastening. Both concepts are plain.

    Lacy (I wear Doc Martins, can I be a Doctor too?)
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

    Those brought in secretly in an attempt to bring the true brethren into bondage.
    False brethren - Grk. pseudodelphoi.

    Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

    Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

    HankD
     
  14. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    The "False Brethren" of Gal 2:4 were fakers. They were not poor folks who easy-believed in the finished work of Christ but didn't get a full dose. They were not "false believers" who just thought they were saved.

    The warnings to be good, produce fruit, watch, strive, etc, OR ELSE, are never ever ever directed toward a non-Christian. Their warning is much more plain.

    This whole "false believer" thing makes salvation a big mess. You either believe or you don't. You either are born or you are not. You either won't thirst again or you will. You either looked upon the serpent of brass or you're gonna die.

    lacy
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And You'll either produce the fruit of the Spirit or the works of the flesh.

    HankD
     
  16. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you don't think there is such a person as one who believes they are born again when all they really have is "head knowledge," not "heart knowledge?" That's a little short-sighted!
     
  17. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2001
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you claim that a sanctified, justified, redeemed, forgiven, born again believer has to pay (via a short sojourn to hell) for ANY sins that Jesus has already paid for, then in essence you are saying Jesus didn't complete the job! God doesn't require additional payment for something already paid for!

    Our motive for seeking to live righteously is not based on "pain avoidance," it's based on love and a desire to please and glorify God / Jesus!
     
  18. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Or either, depending on your obedience.


    lacy
     
  19. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Head knowlege? Heart knowlege? Come on man, use the Bible and not the sleeve to your REO Speedwagon album.
    You either know something or you don't. You make things too complicated when you use convoluted pop-psychology terms to discus the bible.

    lacy
     
  20. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is not what we are saying at all. If you had to pay for your sins, a brief 1000 years wouldn't get it done. But you are arguing with your "heart" and not your "head" :D

    God chastens us.
    He can kill us or make us sick (1 Cor 11:30).
    He can cause us to miss the Kingdom. (Gal 5:21) He can cast both soul and body into Hell. (Matt 10:22-28)

    None of these things affect our eternal security in any way.

    Says you!

    Says God!

    lacy
     
Loading...