The Kingdom of God

The Roman empire is also the latest manifestation of Zoroastrianism. Not coincidentally, this is the religion the Jews had such a hard time with, that was such a problem for them, etc. Revelation mentions the whore of babylon through which has become drunk on the blood of the saints.

Now, if you are ready for a joke, let a preterist tell you how the whore really doesn't exist anymore, how Christ has already returned, and that we are already in the new heavens and new earth. Absolutely rib-breaking laughter will ensue.

 

PB, the papacy might be his springboard. Although, I am inclined to agree with you. Is there any more anti-christ person that the so-called vicar (substitute) of Christ, the pope?

 

While you boys dream of the Catholic anti-christ,I'll just let scripture speak for itself. By the way, how many Old Testament Prophets did the Pope kill?

"The Great City"

Babylon

Rev 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Jerusalem

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city , which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

"Whore and Adultery"

Babylon

Rev 17: 5 and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Jerusalem

Ez 6: 9 And those of you that escape shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captive, how that I have been broken with their lewd heart, which hath departed from me, and with they eyes, which play the harlot after their idols: and they shall loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

Ez 16:15 But thou didst trust in thy beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy whoredoms on every one that passed by; his it was.
16 And thou didst take of thy garments, and madest for thee high places decked with divers colors, and playedst the harlot upon them: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

Jer. 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, will he return unto her again? will not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith Jehovah.
2 Lift up thine eyes unto the bare heights, and see; where hast thou not been lain with? By the ways hast thou sat for them, as an Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; yet thou hast a harlot's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My Father, thou art the guide of my youth?
5 Will he retain his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and hast done evil things, and hast had thy way.
6 Moreover Jehovah said unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7 And I said after she had done all these things, She will return unto me; but she returned not: and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery , I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot.

"Blood of the Saints"

Babylon

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder.

Rev18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

Jerusalem

Matt 23: 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


I Thess2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

"Saints warned to Escape"

Babylon

Rev 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived

Jerusalem

Lk 21:20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out ; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

"Adorned like a Priest"

Babylon

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearls , having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, even the unclean things of her fornication,

Rev 18:16 saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she that was arrayed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearl!

Jerusalem

Ex 28: 5 And they shall take the gold, and the blue, and the purple, and the scarlet, and the fine linen.
6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and purple, scarlet, and fine twined linen, the work of the skilful workman7 It shall have two shoulder-pieces joined to the two ends thereof, that it may be joined together.8 And the skilfully woven band, which is upon it, wherewith to gird it on, shall be like the work thereof and of the same piece; of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen..9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:10 six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the six that remain on the other stone, according to their birth.11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones, according to the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be inclosed in settings of gold.

"Destroyed by Hailstones"

Babylon

Rev 16:
21 And great hail, every stone about the weight of a talent, cometh down out of heaven upon men: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof is exceeding great.

Jerusalem

Josephus records in his book, "War of the Jews" Book 5 chapter 6:3 , that stones weighing 1 talent were catapulted into Jerusalem during the siege by the Roman armies.

Punishment for a harlot were burning and stoning

Old Covenant instructions:

Lev21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Deut 22:20 But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel;
21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones , because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.


Babylon

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire.

Rev 18:21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.

Notice the celebration of the fall of Babylon:


Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.

No more persecution of the early church by the Jews. They had been judged just as Jesus said they would be.

Matt 23: 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you , All these things shall come upon this generation .

 

Maybe not so foolish. The Holy Roman Empire being the continuation of the Roman Empire but in religious garb went from approximately 800AD beginning with Charlemagne through the Reformation.

Some believe that the "deadly wound" was the toppling of the Pope as "pontifex maximus" caused by the Reformation.

Of which wound the Scripture says "whose deadly wound was healed". Perhaps soon this day will come to pass and the Holy Roman Empire will be resurrected as some believe.

Proverbs 27:1...thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.

HankD

 

Yes, but I'm not interested in other entities. I'm interested in who God calls the Harlot all through the Old Testament. Would not those recieving this letter know who John was speaking of? Did not the Jews read their OT daily? Why look for another interpretation when the bible interprets itself?

I do not know the names of the provinces. They did exist, unless you would like ignore scripture. Were there 10? Maybe not, I could be wrong. They may refer to the 10 Ceasears, or something else. I have no problem accepting the fact that I might be wrong.

An Everlasting Covenant

60 "Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 62And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, 63that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done," says the Lord GOD."'

Interesting you think this is future. Even futurist John MacArthur says in his study bible this is the New Covenant.

Notice verse 63: when I provide you an atonement for all you have done," says the Lord GOD."

What atonement do you believe is still future?

When were these thing to happen in Revelation?

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass : and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
2 who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand .

Then at the end of the book He repeats, just in case there is a misunderstanding.

22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.

He was also told to NOT seal up the words. Yet Daniel was told to seal his up because they were still into the distant future.

Who is this book written to? 21 Century christians?

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:

However you wish to interpret Revelation, it must be in the 1st century context.

 

And some of it points to the past, some to the present and some to the future...

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are,
and the things which shall be hereafter;

HankD

 

Dr. Bob,

I'm sure a lot of us here could suggest where to put France, but with the new rules here on Baptist Board, we can't say it.

Tim

 

PB,

I remember reading a very sensible, historical explanation of the ten horns several years ago (I believe it was written by Philip Mauro), but I can't remember the details. I'm not an expert ancient Roman history and I doubt if you are either.

But if I must change my position simply because I don't know the answer to a question of one of my debating oppononents, then will everyone on BB live by that rule? I and others have posed several questions to dispensationalists over the years without getting satisfactory answers from them. But hey, we're all busy people!

And I don't think you can acurately characterize partial-preterism (at least) as "unorthodox". Unpopular since the rise of dispensationalism? Yes, but hardly unorthodox.

In Christ,

Tim

 

The beast of course is the Roman Empire.

The ten horns are:

1. Julus Caesar (49-44 B.C)
2. Augustus ( 31 BC-AD 14)
3. Tiberius ( 14-37)
4. Gaius/Caligula (37-41)
5. Claudius (41-54)
6. Nero (54-68)
7. Galba (68-69)
8. Otho (69)
9. Vitellius (69)
10. Vespasian (69-70)

There are 7 kings; 5 have fallen( Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius)


One is; Nero

the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while; Galba, who reigned from June,68 to January 69)

Others start the list with Pompey and have Vespasian as the 11th horn.

Since you seem to have no problem with any scriptures, notice this:


Matt.16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Now, I can get no one to explain when verse 27 is to take place. Most put verse 28 at the Transfiguration, so where do you put the Coming and Judgement of verse 27? Also at the Transfiguration?

Now to quote you:

 

Actually Josephus was an eye witness to the destruction of Jerusalem. He was the Roman's historian. Not a christian true.Got me on that one.

No, I said Matthew 16:27.

Matt.16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.

So you do put this verse containing His Coming and Judgement at the Transfiguration. You are more of a Preterist than I.

I think it was literal.

When God says in the OT He "would write His Law on men's heart" I believe that literally happened, just not physically. Maybe I should not use the word literal. Christ came just not physically.

Actually I didn't say Gentry said that, this is me belief. What are these"improved investigative techniques" you speak of. Ireaneas is the foudation for the late-dating advocates. He also said Jesus ministered into His 40's.

I was just quoting what some believe. I have no position on that yet. As far as the "until goes, the verses given show precedent for that interpretation.

Who are the dogs, immoral, etc.. outside the gates in Rev. 22:15?

Not familiar with Sumner. Must be a good man though.
I believe Preterist, in some form, span the denominational landscape. With the exception of Baptism I probably am closer to Reformed Presbyterian than most Baptist churches. But not all.

Parousia does not necessarily mean "coming".

Iron sharpens Iron.