The KJV Issue – Faith Vs. Facts

I can say one thing for certain. If the KJVO camp will quit making this an issue (i.e. stop harassing everyone else for using non-KJV Bibles), then we non-KJVO people will leave you alone. You are free to believe whatever you want, but if you start preaching something that has absolutely no support (I'm not talking about you here) with a belligerent, holier-than-thou attitude (e.g. Ruckman), then we non-KJVOs are not going to stand idly by while the word of God is defamed, debased, and dragged through the mud.

 

Neither do we, welcome aboard.

HankD

 

The fact is, most of us would be just fine proclaiming the Gospel, except then sooner or later some nitwits like these guys will come along and try and force the issue.

 

AV Bunyan,

No one would knock you for your belief. The fact that the KJB was THE English bible for several hundred years does lend credence to the proposition that it IS God's word ('cause if it isn't then God didn't really preserve His word).

The problem is that the specific arguments fail to prove EXCLUSIVITY. If the KJB could be PROVEN to stem from the best manuscripts (as if it were clear which are best), if the KJB could be proven to have not been modified or revised at all, if it could be proven that Alexandrian manuscripts were perverted...but these suggestions have all fallen short of definite proof.

So you would get "knocked" for insistence that only the KJV is a valid bible.

I much prefer the KJV over any other translation - but that's my preference. There's no evidencial or scriptural background to justify me (or you) in saying that any one version is the only bible, or that the Spirit will show us that one version alone is God's word.

KJV-preferred is a fine stance; KJV only is not!

 

What if I said I believe by faith that the Holman Christian Standard Bible written in 2004 is the word of God without error. Would you disagree? Would you say, why did God wait so long to put out his word to the people? If I said it is 100% error free, what would you do to verify this or would you just believe it.

 

Interesting name "AVBunyan." Must be someone's initials since John used the Geneva Bible. It can't have anything to do with him.

 

You're not. Although if someone is skeptic you can go along way proving the validity of the Bible's message through extra-biblical history.

The Holy Spirit uses what the Bible says either directly or through the witness of a Christian to convict and save. The problem KJVO's have is that the Bible (KJV) nowhere says anything like what KJVO's believe. You refer to internal proofs and the like but having read and studied the KJV for more than 30 years I can positively affirm that the KJV nowhere identifies itself as the only valid version of God's Word in English.

Absolutely... and he can be shown those "facts" from a number of faithful versions of the Bible.

BTW, this was equally true before the KJV.

If you find anyone here that declares that the KJV is not the Word of God then you will have a great company from the non-KJVO side joining you in denouncing that false teacher. Now with that in mind, I would invite you to help us denounce those who would say that other faithful versions such as the NKJV and NASB are not the Word of God.

We aren't knocking it unless you call being honest about the minor flaws in its text and translation due to the involvement of fallible humans "knocking it". And there are a few flaws... but none effect doctrine and none prevent it from being accurately called the Word of God.

Then you should be on our side since MV's most certainly have borne great "fruit" in both souls and sanctified lives.

Only because the false belief of KJVOnlyism is a modern movement. It is not a historical nor fundamental Christian belief. At best, it is no more than 100 years old... therefore the response to that error can not help but be "modern".

Actually the only people in the habit of condemning versions of God's Word are KJVO's. All of the non-KJVO's I know affirm that the KJV is indeed God's Word... in fact, many of us use the KJV either primarily or exclusively.

The "message" is all that matters! If it weren't then the only way we could have God's Word would be to learn the original languages and then somehow identify that one perfect manuscript of each book of the Bible.

No translation including the KJV is valid unless the message is preeminent.

 

Some of us say by faith we believe that the earth is flat instead of round. Isn’t that how I’m supposed to believe it? Do you try to convince a man the truths of the gospel by presenting historical evidences? If you try to convince a man of this then you are not relying upon the Holy Spirit to do the work – you are relying upon your “persuasive sales abilities.”

Presumption is not faith! Arguing for a case that has been proven to be wrong and blaming the Holy Spirit for ones <edited by moderator>!!!

[ August 22, 2004, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

If the Bible said that the KJV was the only version in English I would surely accept that by faith.

 

But it DOES NOT say that! Therefore, there is nothing to accept by faith—and therefore, it is not a matter of faith, but a matter of presumption.

 

BINGO!

 

Ok fellas in the mv camp. Tell me in plain ameri-speak, WHAT is the word of God? If it is this book AND that book AND that book AND that book AND that book...ad infinitum, you leave me with utter confusion because they are NOT the same.
My faith is in ONE book. I will give you the latitude and grace to believe anything you wish to believe. That is the essence of liberty of conscience. At least allow us the same.
BUT NOOOOOOOOOO! Lame appeals like ( "The bible doesn't say that the kjv...blah blah blah." )do not move me one iota. Scriptures do not mention any of the mv's either. So what? Big deal.
AVBunyan is right. We DO trust the KJB by faith. No other way YOU can trust your mv's but by faith.
Fact is...YOU can't prove any of them are perfect either. And IF you say that none of them are perfect then by default you just relegated the Scriptures to limbo because they claim for themselves perfection. And as for me and my house, we will NOT go down THAT road.
Jim

 

Oh..one more thing Ransom. That link shows folks doing what they did 20 YEARS ago. Ive read that piece a half dozen times. NOTHING in it is new. Would you like to see some MV clowns doing things just as stupid if not more so to reproach the gospel? Have you SEEN the pictures of so-called "christians" AT A ccm CONCERT in their halter tops, tattos, and piercings? I can with all confidence assure you they are not KJB people.
Whether forcing the issue or reproaching the precious name of Jesus, the actions of "bad guys" on either side of the issue does not a convincing argument make one way or the other. It simply shows that SOME folks who name the name of Jesus haven't got a clue what it means to die to self. It has NO BEARING on your position in THIS debate.
Jim

 

I would have to agree here. The KJVO's are the one's making the biggest issue of the MV's, libeling/slandering them by saying they are "perversions". This is far from fact. ALL DOCTRINES AND FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH ARE FOUND INTACT IN THE MV'S! Some may say they are weakened, leaving out verses, etc., but they don't seem to address the issues of underlying texts, and the fact that they are VERSIONS, not literally word for word translations. I use the KJV as a matter of preference, but I do not and will not advocate the attacks on the MV's as perversions as so many of the brethren have done. I, too, though not an apologist for the MV's, will fight against this misrepresentation, as it does not honor Christ, demeans others, causes many to question their salvation/calling, and ruins lives.

AVL1984

 

Neither are the 1611 King James and the 1769 King James, there are hundreds of differences. There were two First Editions of the 1611 King James Bible, the Cambridge and the Oxford, they had differences in the text which persist to this day.

"things which are different are not the same".

HankD

 

There's a difference in FAITH BASED UPON THE KNOWN vs BLIND FAITH, believing something unseen just because a fellow human declared it. God tells us that proof of His existence and power is the CREATION. thus, when we break matter down,the most basic particle of matter now known is the quark...which demands a CREATOR, as, try as it may, science CANNOT produce something from nothing. there's no physical force or item which can make matter appear in a vacuum. And there's also the unmistakable proof of FULFILLED PROPHECY. A little one-phrase prophect in Daniel..."travel and knowledge shall be greatly increased"...has perhaps the greatest impact upon how we've lived since birth. And, there's the sudden growth of Judah(Israel) from a motley collection of kibbutzim to a military superpower, with the wealth of the nation growing daily. No, God does NOT want us to believe by BLIND faith.

But that's exactly what the KJVO myth and its advocates asks of us...to believe the KJV is the ONLY valid English Bible translation out there. This doctrine is patently false; it was started by a known cult official, it has absolutely NO justification by Scripture, even from the AV 1611 itself, and every point its advocates has ever presented has been almost immediately shot down by undeniable empirical evidence.

I have no prob with anyone wishing to use the KJV or any other valid version exclusively, but when they tell ME my choice of using several versions is wrong, then it's war. I flat-out REFUSE to compromise with a KNOWN FALSE DOCTRINE or its advocates.

 

av1611jim: "Ok fellas in the mv camp. Tell me in plain ameri-speak, WHAT is the word of God? If it is this book AND that book AND that book AND that book AND that book...ad infinitum, you leave me with utter confusion because they are NOT the same."

AVBunyan: " ... why do some of you get so wound up when some of us say by faith we believe the King James is the word of God without error? Isn’t that how I’m supposed to believe it?"

Why do some of you get so wound up when some of us
say be faith we believe ALL RELIABLE TRANLSATIONS are
(collectively and individually) the written word of God
without error. Recall that only the axiom varies, that
which we take by faith.

I am perfectly willing to argue until Jesus comes which
is the beter axiom.