The KJV1873 Edition

Ed Edwards · Feb 26, 2007

This topic is for the discussion of
The KJV1873 Edition
specifically the
"Preface to the 1873 Edition"

I looked at Google for:
"Preface to the 1873 Edition" "King James Version"
All I found is:
Today's Parallel Bible is for sell at this place:

http://www.thattechnicalbookstore.com/b0310918367.htm

There is a sample from Genesis of the KJV1873 by
the Publisher: Zondervan in Adobe format at:

http://www.zondervan.com/media/samples/pdf/0310941393_samptxt.pdf

Since I can't find an electronic copy of the page:
"Preface to the 1873 Edition", I may quote it all in portions,
I want to discuss the "Preface to the 1873 Edition".
Evidently it is an amended edition by Dr Scrivner distributed by
Zondervan.

The preface is also mentioned at BB at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=546203

by Ed Edwards, of course:

Strangely the "Preface to the 1873 Edition" is contained in the volume.
So i expect this version of the KJV isn't accepted by
the comic book doctrine crowd as real KJB If the people in
the pew start knowing there are different edition/versions of the
KJV, then the pastors would have to start explaining that to them.
Some of the smarter pew persons will realize that the pastors
have been witholding this information for years.

My pastor reads from a KJV (actually i think he has so much memorized
that mostly he quotes from memory) and mentions where there
is a better or more up-to-date translation. In the past somebody
donated a lot of NIVs which now reside in the back of the pews.
Some member of the congegration reads a scripture each Sunday
morning. The most used versions are the KJV, nKJV, NIV.
Sunday pastor even mentioned the various versions of the KJV
(well, that there are), that he had a 1611 origional. He mentioned
you need a English degree to read it
Click to expand...

-Ed, Multiple KJVs user

Keith M · Feb 26, 2007

I don't know about an English degree, but having "cut my teeth" on one of the KJVs, it doesn't seem so hard. But back in my whippersnapper years I was really surprised the first time I saw the differences in the 1611 KJV and later editions - especially in the spellings of words. It took me a while to learn to read the "u" as a "v." But then I discoveree for myself that all the early translations used the "u" instead of the "v" - the "v" came later and was used in later KJVs.

Rufus_1611 · Feb 26, 2007

He mentioned you need a English degree to read it.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you recognized the error in this statement.

Ed Edwards · Feb 26, 2007

Ed Edwards about his pastor and the KJVs:
//He mentioned you need a English degree to read it. //

Rufus_1769: //I'm sure you recognized the error in this statement.//

I recognize the truth of my Pastor's statement.

From my English Major (pre-Seminary, from OBU)
Pastor, I learned about the 'polysyndeton'.
Knowing about the polysyndeton, the Holy Spirit
helped me understand that the key to
Jesus'es prophecy in Matthew 24-25 is Matthew 24-3.
The outline of the prophecy then is in
the polysyndetons ('kai' in Greek).

---------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

Rufus_1611 · Feb 26, 2007

Ed Edwards said:

Ed Edwards about his pastor and the KJVs:
//He mentioned you need a English degree to read it. //

Rufus_1769: //I'm sure you recognized the error in this statement.//

I recognize the truth

From my English Major (pre-Seminary, from OBU)
Pastor, I learned about the 'polysyndeton'.
Knowing about the polysyndeton, the Holy Spirit
helped me understand that the key to
Jesus'es prophecy in Matthew 24-25 is Matthew 24-3.
The outline of the prophecy then is in
the polysyndetons ('kai' in Greek).

---------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
Click to expand...

How does all that demonstrate that you need an English degree to understand the Bible?

Ed Edwards · Feb 26, 2007

Rufus_1611 said:

How does all that demonstrate that you need an English degree to understand the Bible?
Click to expand...

Your response belays your mis-understanding of the conversation

Rufus_1611 · Feb 26, 2007

Ed Edwards said:

Your response belays your mis-understanding of the conversation
Click to expand...

It "belays" it? I don't have a degree in English. Could you point me to a dictionary and the definition you are using so I might understand what you are saying?

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inego Montoya

Ed Edwards · Feb 26, 2007

Ed Edwards to Rufus_1769:
//Your response belays your mis-understanding of the conversation//

Rufus_1769: //It "belays" it? I don't have a degree in English. Could you point me to a dictionary and the definition you are using so I might understand what you are saying?//

I'm a retired Engineer - the opposite of an English Major.
However: I can point & click (I even have Webster's 1828 Dicitonary on a
top bar of my Browswer (Mozilla Firefox).

This page:

http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exe?search_for_texts_web1828=belay

has this definition:

BELA'Y, v.t. [This word is composed of be and lay, to lay to, lay by, or close. See Beleaguer.]

1. To block up, or obstruct.

2. To place in ambush.

3. To adorn, surround, or cover.

4. In seamanship, to fasten, or make fast, by winding a rope round a cleat, kevil, or belaying-pin. It is chiefly applied to the running rigging.
Click to expand...

Let us do some simple subsitution and figure it out:

1. Your response obstructs your mis-understanding of the conversation.
Makes no sense

2. Your response ambushes your mis-understanding of the conversation.
Makes no sense

3. Your response covers your mis-understanding of the conversation.
Makes a tad of sense, but no prize

4. Your response ties down your mis-understanding of the conversation.
That is what this antique word: 'belay' means for this conversation.

I need to run do some errands. I'll visit some more about this
matter. And someday I'll get into the subject:
the Preface to the 1873 Edition.

Rufus_1611 · Feb 26, 2007

Ed Edwards said:

Ed Edwards to Rufus_1769:
//Your response belays your mis-understanding of the conversation//

Rufus_1769: //It "belays" it? I don't have a degree in English. Could you point me to a dictionary and the definition you are using so I might understand what you are saying?//

I'm a retired Engineer - the opposite of an English Major.
However: I can point & click (I even have Webster's 1828 Dicitonary on a
top bar of my Browswer (Mozilla Firefox).

This page:

http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exe?search_for_texts_web1828=belay

has this definition:

Let us do some simple subsitution and figure it out:

1. Your response obstructs your mis-understanding of the conversation.
Makes no sense

2. Your response ambushes your mis-understanding of the conversation.
Makes no sense

3. Your response covers your mis-understanding of the conversation.
Makes a tad of sense, but no prize

4. Your response ties down your mis-understanding of the conversation.
That is what this antique word: 'belay' means for this conversation.

I need to run do some errands. I'll visit some more about this
matter. And someday I'll get into the subject:
the Preface to the 1873 Edition.
Click to expand...

I will continue to maintain that you do not need a degree in English to understand the Bible and I do not believe you have made a case that we do. However, you have made a case for why one might need a degree in seamanship to understand you. Please carry-on with your preface discussion.

Keith M · Feb 26, 2007

Ed Edwards said:

I need to run do some errands. I'll visit some more about this
matter. And someday I'll get into the subject:
the Preface to the 1873 Edition.
Click to expand...

Just jump right in there, Ed. We can see where the heckling is going. Let's see where your OP is going.

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

Ed Edwards · Feb 26, 2007

I have to type stuff myself. I'll be back.

BruceB · Feb 26, 2007

http://www.hendrickson.com/pdf/intros/1565635612-intro.pdf

Ed, is this what you are looking for? Bruce

Ed Edwards · Feb 26, 2007

Title and first paragraph:

King James Version
PREFACE TO THE 1873 EDITION

The most time-honored and widely used edition of the
English Bible is the translation of 1611, commonly known
as the Authorized Version of King James Version (KJV).
But though it has served as the standard translation for millions
of users through nearly four centuries, there has never
been a standard edition to which all printings are conformed.
Click to expand...

Ed Edwards · Feb 26, 2007

BruceB said:

http://www.hendrickson.com/pdf/intros/1565635612-intro.pdf

Ed, is this what you are looking for? Bruce
Click to expand...

That is it -- Thank you!

wattch? some kind of Google Guru?

Ed Edwards · Feb 26, 2007

King James Version
PREFACE TO THE 1873 EDITION:

...

Because the translators’ original manuscript no longer exists,
the KJV text must be established by
consulting the earliest settings. Dr. Scrivener compared
at least 15 early settings and important revisions,
including both settings of 1611; Bibles of 1612, 1613,
1616, 1617, 1629, 1630, 1634, 1638,
1640; and the significant editions of Drs. Paris (1762)
and Blayney (1769).
In his 120-page introduction, Dr. Scrivener addressed
the various features of the KJV he worked to
standardize:

...

Click to expand...

Ed Edwards · Feb 26, 2007

Comments on MARGINAL NOTES
(I've called these translator notes elsewhere) are from:

http://www.hendrickson.com/pdf/intros/1565635612-intro.pdf

titled:
PREFACE TO THE 1873 EDITION

Marginal notes. The KJV does not contain explanatory
or doctrinal comments but does include annotations
“for the explanation of the Hebrew and Greek words.”

In the Old Testament of 1611, there
are 6,637 such notes. The more literal meaning of the
original Hebrew or Aramaic (“Chaldee”) is expressed
in 4,111 notes, indicated by the abbreviation “Heb.”
or “Chald.”; 2,156 give alternate renderings,
indicated by the word “Or”; 63 give the meaning
of proper names; 240 harmonize parallel
passages; and 67 refer to various readings in the Hebrew
manuscripts used by the translators.

In the New Testament of 1611, there are 765 marginal
notes. Alternate translations are given in 583
notes, indicated by the word “Or”; 112 provide
a more literal rendering of the Greek, indicated by the
abbreviation “Gr.”; 35 are explanatory notes
or brief expositions; and 35 relate to alternate readings
in the Greek manuscripts used by the translators.

Significant notes from later editions have also
been included in square brackets [ ]. There are 368
additional notes in the Old Testament (for example,
Gen. 1:20) and 105 in the New (for example,
Mat. 1:20,21).
Click to expand...

The 35 New Testament alternate readings are being
discussed in this Topic:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=37811

called:
Notes in the 1611 KJV

Deacon · Feb 27, 2007

This preface is a recent construction, written for Zondervan by John R. Kohlenbergerger III.

The original preface started out so:

THE

CAMBRIDGE PARAGRAPH BIBLE

OF THE

AUTHORIZED ENGLISH VERSION,

WITH THE TEXT REVISED BY A COLLATION OF ITS EARLY AND OTHER PRINCIPAL EDITIONS,

THE USE OF THE ITALIC TYPE MADE UNIFORM,

THE MARGINAL REFERENCES REMODELLED,

AND A CRITICAL INTRODUCTION PREFIXED

BY

THE REV. F. H. SCRIVENER, M.A., LL.D.

RECTOR OF ST. GERRANS, EDITOR OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT, CODEX AUGIENSIS, &c.

ONE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT COMPANY OF REVISERS OF THE AUTHORIZED VERSION.

Edited for the Syndics of the University Press.

Cambridge:

AT THE UNIVERSITY PRESS.

——————

LONDON: CAMBRIDGE WAREHOUSE, 17, PATERNOSTER ROW.

CAMBRIDGE: DEIGHTON, BELL AND CO.

1873.

CONTENTS.

———♦———
Introduction
Sect. I. —On the History of the Text of the Authorized Version of the English Bible, from a. d. 1611 down to the present time.
Sect. II. —On the Marginal Notes and the Original Texts of the Authorized Version of the English Bible.
Sect. III. —On the Use of the Italic Type by the Translators, and on the extension of their principles by subsequent Editors.
Sect. IV. —On the System of Punctuation adopted in 1611, and modified in more recent Bibles.
Sect. V. —On the Orthography, Grammatical Peculiarities, and Capital Letters of the Original, as compared with Modern Editions.
Sect. VI. —On the References to parallel texts of Scripture which are set in the Margin.
Sect. VII. —Miscellaneous Observations relating to the present Edition, and general Conclusion.
Appendix A.—List of passages in which this Edition departs from the Text of 1611.
Appendix B.—The two Issues of the Bible of 1611 compared.
Appendix C.—List of passages in which the Readings of the Edition of the Authorized Bible of 1611 have been restored in the present volume.
Appendix D.—Blayney’s Report to the Rev. the Vice-Chancellor, and the other Delegates of the Clarendon Press.
Appendix E.—The Greek Text adopted by the Translators of the Authorized Version of the New Testament.
The Translators’ Preface to the Reader
The Epistle Dedicatory (1)

[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]The Cambridge Paragraph Bible: Of the Authorized English Version. 2006. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Ed Edwards · Feb 27, 2007

Rufus_1611 said:

I will continue to maintain that you do not need a degree in English to understand the Bible and I do not believe you have made a case that we do. However, you have made a case for why one might need a degree in seamanship to understand you. Please carry-on with your preface discussion.
Click to expand...

Yes, I shall carry on.

This is a NOT a debate, it is an information sharing topic.
I shared information about how something my Pastor
(a college English Major) shared about the English language:
namely about Figures of speech. Figures of Speech are used
throughout the Bible to communicate so those who understand
about Figures of speech can be used by the Holy Spirit toward
deeper relationships with Jesus, the Messiah.

If we were going to debate, I'd be talking about the
Baptist Cult of Ignorance that teaches the heresy
that The Holy Spirit can't use the educated.
Some elements of that heresy disdain anything past 5th grade
(Saints don't need to know about improper fractions,
only proper fractions )

Rufus_1611: // ... I do not believe you have made a case that we do. //

I didn't try to make a case, only give an example of how it
might be helpful. And thank you for helping my case show up
twice :godisgood:

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