1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Line Between Faith and Patriotism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Timsings, Jun 25, 2008.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ken is that all you have in you just these personal little diggs. It is probably time to step up to your age level.
     
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    41,907
    Likes Received:
    1,469
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are under no obligation to read my posts, Pastor Mitchell. If you don't like them, then just don't read them. :)
     
  3. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,833
    Likes Received:
    0

    Your question doesn't make sense. Where do I claim that Bush is a dictator? There are still enough real patriots in this country to prevent that from happening. However, ramming through the patriot act right after 9/11 was a step in taking away6 some of our constitutional liberties.
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,248
    Likes Received:
    9
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Ok I think I get where you're coming from (though you seem very adament). The first thing is that I think we misunderstand each other. When I think of torture the items that you mentioned: sleep deprivation, loud music, or similar tactics are wasn't what I was conjuring when thinking of torture. Heck I went through that in college and basic training. I'm think water boarding, rape, the use of electricity, killing family members, serious physical violence.
    It is interesting that Jesus didn't really discuss how we should behave in war. This is because the Jews already had a well developed legal system which also covered war. Deuteronomy 20-21 covers war type issues and you don't find torture being included. Wiping out the enemy is one thing torture from my perspective is something else. You can get over things like sleep deprevation and loud music (which was funny in Noriegas case). The things I mention you cannot.

    Either way Christians are not to encourage violence. Though I do not believe that they are prohibited from protecting themselves. There are many chritians who do.
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Rape, mamming, actual physical damage of any kind is not something I support. I do not lump waterboarding in with those it does no real physical damage. I have no issue with that. Anyway it has been said in this thread that drawing lines on acceptable torture should not be done and is unchristian. That is what I have na issue with.
     
  6. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'll revise that statement to read:

    "When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in the muslim flag and carrying a crescent moon and Quran."

    How interesting you should quote an atheist and a drunk, Ken. NOT!
     
    #46 LadyEagle, Jun 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2008
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    41,907
    Likes Received:
    1,469
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Actually, LE, I learned about the quote from Republican Congressman Ron Paul when he quoted it during his presidential campaign.

    I find the Islamophobia of some ultra-conservatives to be unChrist-like and repulsive.
     
  8. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,833
    Likes Received:
    0

    What lies about the President? How do they support homosexuality? I've never heard anything like that. What 17 girls that got pregnant. How did they support them? Fox has changed tremendously. They're no different than the others now. I think you're making all this stuff up to go along with your warped politics.

    Now I remember the 17 girl story. Here is how CBS news reported it:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=4197591n?source=search_video

    I can't find the video for Fox but here is their coverage in print form.

    http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Jun20/0,4670,PregnancyPact,00.html


    Now, please tell me exactly what's different in the handling of this story by CBS versus Fox.
     
    #48 JustChristian, Jun 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2008
  9. Timsings

    Timsings Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    585
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist

    This raises another question that needs to be thrown into this. Jesus did not speak directly to war and mass attacks. But does that make it all right to do violence and/or torture enemy combatants? More generally, does Jesus make any exceptions to what he says about how people are to treat each other? For example, Does Matthew 5.44 say, "Love your enemies unless he is an Islamic terrorist? I think it is evident that Jesus went out of his way to challenge the issues that separate people, particularly the people of his day. The fact that he called Matthew, a tax collector, who was a collaborator with the Romans in the persecution of the Jews, and Simon, a Zealot, who was dedicated to the overthrow of the Romans, to be his disciples supports this. Jesus uses this passage to elaborate on the Beatitudes, particularly Matthew 5.9, 11, on peacemaking and experiencing persecution respectively. That raises another question. If we are blessed when we "suffer insults and persecutions and calumnies of every kind", then what are we when we are inflicting insults, persecutions, and calumnies of every kind on others? There is an inference to be drawn here that challenges the character of our faith.

    And your statement that "Christ was simply saying that neighbor extends to all men" is not simple at all. As you well know, for Jesus to use a Samaritan to make his point was probably more offensive to his listeners than if he had used a Roman. It was so offensive that the lawyer, in responding to Jesus's question about who was the neighbor to the man in need, could not bring himself to say, "the Samaritan". He answered, "The one who showed him kindness." Clarence Jordan got his translation right when he makes the lawyer a "Sunday School teacher", the priest a "white preacher", the Levite "a white Gospel song leader" [An aside: I once heard a recording of Jordan reading this passage. He said that the song leader had to hurry to the church in order to teach the Junior choir the song they were going to sing in the revival service that night, "Brighten the Corner Where You Are".), and the Samaritan "a black man". Could the Samaritan have been more offensive to the Jews than the Islamic terrorists are to Americans?

    The words of the prophets speak to this also, but, even there, the visions presented are in conflict. In Isaiah 2.1-4 and Micah 4.1-4, we have the description of the people beating their "swords into mattocks and their spears into pruning-knives". In Joel 3.9-12, we have God telling the people to "Beat your mattocks into swords and your pruning-knives into spears." What do we do now?

    Finally, I would cite Amos 2.4-6.14. There God makes it very clear that God will not hesitate to destroy the people of Judah and Israel because of their disobedience. In 2.4, Judah had been "led astray by the same false gods." In 2.7, Israel had been grinding "the heads of the helpless into dust." In both cases, the people had used their prosperity to claim that their relationship with God was righteous.

    Today, the church stands in a similar position. We are in danger of being coopted (i. e., selling our collective soul) for a finite political goal. This political goal relativizes and trivializes our faith. If we continue to justify the use of violence and/or torture in the service of this political goal, we will be subject to same consequences that Amos listed. The only remaining question is whether we still have a chance of finding our way out of the political intanglements in which we have entrenched ourselves.

    I hope this fulfills the several calls for me to provide scriptural references.

    Tim Reynolds
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is a straw man however unintentional. I do not know anyone who has suggested this?
     
  11. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,833
    Likes Received:
    0

    What would Jesus do?
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,248
    Likes Received:
    9
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Just a thougt:

    Jesus will come back but to be a judge and send people to Hell and etc....
    Since Jesus 1st advent was specific for mankinds redemption and he left to be with the father until his return maybe we should ask: What will Jesus do? You know the whole Iron Rod thing....Maybe he won't be so pacifistic then. :type:

    On the other hand war is war and sometimes we need to defend ourselves. I don't suggest toture of the extreme. Sleep deprivation I wouldn't worry about. The OT is full of war and God using it to defend and pass judgement. Unfortunately in this world there is war. We being it residents (I don't say citizens) are forced into it. We should never glorify it. We should always advocate peace. There are just some people who never want peace and will endanger us and our families. Where does our responsibilities lie then?
     
  13. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    101
    The testimony of the earliest Christians, when being oppressed and/or tortured, was to pray for their enemies but offer no violent resistence. The NT is clear that vengence and retribution aren't Christian.

    When we strike back, when we "preemptively attack", when we call to arms, when we do violence we are negating the essence of Christianity. When an oppressor comes and tries to put their foot on our necks we pray for their conversion and let God take care of the rest. How often we forget that Christ never struck back when He was beaten, that He healed those injured in His midst, and His example won over many.

    While it certainly is a hard thing to do, we, as Christians, are not to be reactionary and attacking...even in the name of "national security." It isn't our place, it isn't our mission, it isn't our role. :)
     
  14. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,248
    Likes Received:
    9
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    What about when it is? President, General, Soldier.
     
  15. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,833
    Likes Received:
    0

    Jesus' future role as King of Kings and Lord of Lords when he returns to the earth in power and glory has nothing to do with what He taught about the Christian life here on earth. Of course he will return to defeat Satan and his followers and of course He will judge the quick and the dead. Are we going to do any of these things? Did He teach us to lead armies or to love our enemy?
     
  16. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,248
    Likes Received:
    9
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Actually this quote was a thought (not what I believe) because of the whole what would Jesus do. Statement. In of itself there is nothing wrong with the statement. I just get tired of hearing it because ultimately people believe that Jesus would do what they envision He would do which or may not actually be the case. I was being cheeky.
    I don't have a problem being peaceful. In fact I've stated that christians should advocate peace because of what Jesus teaches with the beatitudes. I don't believe christians should advocate torture I've made this clear but I think some people may differ on what torture means.
    All in all are christians prohibited in particpation in war? I don't think so. But then I'm biased.
     
  17. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    3,833
    Likes Received:
    0

    I don't think prohibited is the right word. We need to make a choice based on our own interpretation of the Bible. Recently I've become more focused on the teachings of Jesus himself. I feel that His words have almost been made secondary to the words of Paul and others. I myself have also started to see the much greater importance of walking with Christ as I know Him rather than fighting over the interpretation of some Greek word in the Bible. My understanding of Jesus comes partially from the Bible and interpretation of the Bible of course. But it can also come from within as Eric Liddle, the Olympic champion and soon to be martyred missionary to China, said in Chariots of Fire. That movie was very inspiring to me because a dedicated Christian can use his talents for the glory of God.

    OK. Back to war. I asked way back when I was in high school how a true Christian could be anything other than a pacifist. I think that in reality if the U.S. were truly faced with an enemy that could destroy us I would serve. If I had been a young man during WWII I probably would have enlisted. But none of the wars or police actions during my adult lifetime have been anything like that. That includes Viet Nam, both Iraq wars and the war in Afghanistan. I viewed the first Iraq war as a just war in which we responded to the invasion of an alley but our homeland was never in danger.

    After I graduated from college I became 1A, a prime candidate for Viet Nam and showed up for my pre-induction physical. I had already signed up for the Air Force ROTC in graduate school and then dropped that because it meant a 6 year commitment. Then I signed up for Navy OCS. I might have gone through with that but the Navy sent me a letter questioning my physical based on an ongoing shoulder problem. I ended up dropping the Navy and appealing my Army physical. I then had another physical (my 4th including Ft. Bragg and Ft. Knox) after which I was finally declared ineligible.

    What would I have done if I had passed that 4th physical. I had determined during this very difficult time that I would have taken the following steps:

    1) First declare myself to be a conscientious objector. I had been a very devoted Christian to that point and the youth week pastor at my SBC church. To date, I still have never fired a gun and am not the fighting type.

    2) Only if that was unsuccessful I would have "moved" to Canada.

    Either going to Viet Nam or to Canada would have been the most serious step in my life. The bottom line for me was I really believed that God had a plan for my life and it wasn't to throw it away in a war that I didn't believe in. In all humility, I went to the assistant pastor of my last church and told him I was the guy who had 5 talents. From that time on I taught adult Sunday school, sang in the choir, served as a Deacon, did lay preaching mainly in retirement homes and served on two pulpit committees.

    If I were faced with the same decision today I would do the exact same thing. Sometimes I'm amazed I handled this whole thing in a way that was exactly in line with my lifetime beliefs at such a young age.

    But everybody had to make that decision for themselves. I respect and honor those who chose the opposite path.
     
  18. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,248
    Likes Received:
    9
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Did you ever consider that Viet Nam was part of a Vow the US took and by not supporting the South Vietnamese and the French we were sinning? I'm not judging you just pointing out the other side.
     
  19. stilllearning

    stilllearning Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi everyone


    I have stayed out of the war debate, because it is none of my business:
    (I am not an elected official nor a service member:)

    But since the subject has been brought up, and some things have been said about the 10 commandments, etc.
    Here is what the Bible says......
    --------------------------------------------------
    (Anyone who takes a human life, by murder, should be put to death by the government:)
    --------------------------------------------------
    (This practice of capital punishment, cleanses our land of the curse brought upon it, by the shedding of innocent blood.)
    --------------------------------------------------
    (If someone brakes into your house, they have forfeited their life, and you will not be punished for taking it.)
    --------------------------------------------------

    On 9-11, they came into our house, and killed people;
    (And our government responded!)
     
  20. NiteShift

    NiteShift New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2005
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    0
    "The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name." - Exodus 15:3
     
Loading...