1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Living Paraphrase

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Oct 9, 2004.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    The literal translation would be, "son of perverse rebelliousness.” The Hebrew word translated “son of perverse” is a feminine participle, thus we get “Son of a perverse woman of rebellion.”

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, if we have a perverse woman of rebellion. She is both perverse and rebellious, I assume? Is the translation referred to above the most accurate term for this description? Besides a female dog, I always it assumed that the woman was a grouch, to put it bluntly. (or used in the phrase possibly a loose woman with no husband), but does rebelliousness refer to MORE than this? Such as rebelliousness against God? Overall wickedness? etc.?

    Just asking---not opinion.
     
  2. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    1
    craigbythesea asked:

    Just exactly where in the Hebrew text do you find the phrase “out sitting on the toilet?”

    I don't know Hebrew, but my best understanding, based on some translation of the words the KJV renders "or he is pursuing," is that the Hebrew must be ambiguous here and that is one possible meaning.

    In context, it makes as much sense as anything else Elijah says. Perhaps more so, since his intent was mockery and I'm sure this was pretty insulting even back then.
     
  3. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,535
    Likes Received:
    21
    However, Elijah didn’t say it—Kenneth Taylor did. :D :eek: [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    1
    Don't you get dizzy arguing in circles like that?
     
  5. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,535
    Likes Received:
    21
    Some people don't know the difference between a circle and a straight line. :D :eek: [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  6. TC

    TC Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    2,244
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Living Bible is a paraphrase and is the writers interpretation - nothing more and nothing less. I find that paraphrases can be good for commentary at times - if for no other reason than to get someone elses opinion. Poeple complain about obscenities in the Living Bible but do not care about the KJV containing what could be classified as an obscenity today. For example, I get embarassed as all get out when reading the story of Balam's a** as written in the KJV in front of children. I will instead use the modern word donkey. However, I have had KJVO's accuse me of changing God's word for doing that. They claim that God chose a**, and if I use a different word, I am changing and taking the faith out of the Bible (hogwash in my opinion).

    The NLT is a revision of the Living Bible and it gets rid of the problem areas of the Living Bible. It is still a paraphrase in my opinion. Nevertheless, it corrects Ken Taylor's theological biases in the Living Bible and gets rid of the obscenities. I find it is very easy to read. Therefore, I often read an entire book straight through to get the general ideas of the book and how it is laid out. Knowing that in advance helps me to better study the details from a formal translation such as the KJV or NKJV.
     
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    1
    I am not a fan of paraphrases, but one of my profs at seminary (he teaches Hebrew and Greek as well as OT and Hermeneutics) told us that the correct translation would be "sitting on the toilet." I think he said the Hebrew phrase "is busy" is a Hebrew idiom used for relieving one's self, if I recall correctly. He would not tell us this if it were not the case.
     
  8. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,535
    Likes Received:
    21
    Yes, there are some Hebrew scholars who hold to this point of view. However, see the following:

    -- American Standard
    1 Kings 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud; for he is a god: either he is musing, or he is gone aside, or he is on a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth and must be awaked.

    -- Revised Standard
    1 Kings 18:27 And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, "Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."

    -- New American Standard
    1 Kings 18:27 It came about at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, "Call out with a loud voice, for he is a god; either he is occupied or gone aside, or is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and needs to be awakened."

    -- New American with Apocrypha
    1 Kings 18:27 When it was noon, Elijah taunted them: "Call louder, for he is a god and may be meditating, or may have retired, or may be on a journey. Perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."

    -- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
    1 Kings 18:27 At noon Elijah mocked them, saying, "Cry aloud! Surely he is a god; either he is meditating, or he has wandered away, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."

    -- Darby's Bible
    1 Kings 18:27 And it came to pass at noon that Elijah mocked them and said, Cry aloud; for he is a god; for he is meditating, or gone aside, or he is on a journey; perhaps he sleeps, and will awake.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thanks for posting those. I think the phrase "or he is gone aside" and "occupied" found above were used to mean relieving one's self. It's just a question of whether to put it in there like that or whether to use euphemisms like "gone aside" or "occupied."

    Personally, I would prefer to know what it really means rather than read euphemisms. The clear language brings more humor to the passage and to what was going on there.
     
  10. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marcia, I agree. If that is what the Hebrew says, that is what the English should say.

    Just like the Hebrew, it does not have to be nasty, just described in a way that everyone would understand it. Relieving himself, or some other clear explanation.
     
  11. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,535
    Likes Received:
    21
    I prefer a literal translation, especially when it is not known if a word or phrase was intended by the author to be taken literally or idiomatically. In this particular case, where scholars are divided, I believe that it is best to give a word for word translation and let the readers and commentators interpret the words for themselves.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,162
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Marcia: "Personally, I would prefer to know what it really means rather than read euphemisms. The clear language brings more humor to the passage and to what was going on there.

    Philip: "Marcia, I agree. If that is what the Hebrew says, that is what the English should say."

    On a related matter: Job 2:9 has Mrs. Job telling her husband "curse God and die" in probably all translations (cf. also Job 1:5, where "cursed" is literally "blessed", but in context even more clearly euphemistic).

    The Hebrew actually says "Bless God and die", and "perhaps my sons have sinned and blessed God in their hearts." There is *no* Kethib/Qere alternative in the margin. So does one translate literally, or reflect the euphemism? My own preference would be to at least give the literal rendering in a footnote.
     
Loading...