The Lord Opened Lydia's Heart

Is faith an exercise of the will? I think so. I believe that John 1:13 clearly tells us that we are born again of God, not our flesh or blood or will. Thank you. :wavey: By the way, I agree with you TCGreek

 

I guess it depends on how you are defining will. Faith is the substance of what is hoped for, what is not seen and comes from hearing (understanding), and that from the Word of God.

 

So, inside the book of Acts we are hardpressed to make a case that regeneration precedes faith and outside of Acts other scriptures "seem" to indicate it. You don't sound very confident, TCGreek.

 

I have re-read the entire thread, and didn't find it. Maybe I missed it.

TCGreek, reformedbeliever and others have interpreted "the Lord opened her heart" to be regeneration. swaimj, webdog and others have responded with this interpretation: no it doesn't.

What I can't find is an interpretation by the "no it doesn't" folks as to exactly what they think it does mean.

If it's not regeneration, then what is it?

 

I agree what is a main problem in this discussion is the definition of 'regeneration'.
The Calvinist has this as the act preceding salvation so that salvation is assured to take place.
The Non-Cal position is that 'regeneration' IS the act of salvation where by making him born agian and therefore literally a child of God due to the new birth.

But how do we define it's true nature and therefore it's meaning. We all know the answer - Scritpure. So how often does scripture use the term 'regeneration' and when it is used what does it convey in context. It is only found twice in scripture:

This is obviously pertaining to our complete and final regeneration (body/soul/spirit). But feel free to correct me please, I'm no scholar by any stretch.
So from what I see is that the 'regeneration' here refers to the completed act by which they (the apostles) will partake in its promises - like the judging of Israel's 12 tribes.

But the point being it is a completed act whereby they are immidate partakers of its benifits.

First let us look at '..washing (laver) of regeneration..' This 'laver' was an outward display by the OT priests showing they were cleansed and the picture here is much the same regarding our baptism which is a picture of us being spiritually clean. When we are baptized by the Holy Ghost we ARE placed into the body of Christ because we ARE NOW saved. The 'washing' is an outward display due to the inward and completed act of salvation whereby we then will follow in obedience the command of our Lord, to be baptized.

Regeneration here is also seen as the COMPLETED act of salvation whereby we are immidate partakers of its benifits.

Then at the '..renewing of the Holy Ghost..'. This renewing is specific to an on-going and daily process called sanctification. However in this to we see the symbolism of newness, like the new man we have become and no longer in the image of the old but continuing toward the likeness we have been predestined to be conformed into the image of His dear Son - Christ Jesus.

Thirdly we see '..he saved us..' but you will notice the word saved (sozo) which is Aor, Act, Indic. It is context that helps define the Aorist best (IMO) (which I'm sure you know, actually is niether past, present or future regarding time). However in light OF time the word [sozo] is more properly situated in the past tense (salvation procurred then and them now) referencing them continuing in an activity.
.
He saved us,...and it is (now) visiblably seen, which is the result of His saving invisably/spiriutally. They are both (regeneration and washing) speaking figuratively of a literal event that has ALREADY happened.

Therefore, (as I see it anyway) the biblical definition of 'regeneration' is the total salvation process COMPLETED by which we are Children of God and joint-heirs IN Christ, also known in scripture as 'being BORN-again. There can be no other definition regarding regeneration like - it being a happening BEFORE Salvation .

 

After reading the thread I noticed no one actually dealt with the passage of scripture Swaimj ask them to. Reformed stated it was a good point...but then switched gears and stated "what I believe is..."

BTW - Hello Reformed - LONG time no see. :wavey:

Here is what was asked to be looked at:

Now I know that TC stated the 'regeneration' of the Holy Spirit was different from the saving work of the Holy Spirit (if I'm wrong TC correct me). However, I would like to see from scripture its division. I have already pointed out that regeneration is spoke of only TWICE and both instances refer to the completed work of salvation. So where does this distinction take place bibically. please.

 

Very true, but it still will not go against the Word itself. Narritives or not, it will still flow without fail nor pause to present the same truths from start to finish. Agreed?

Actaully, the non-cals see the scriptural order as faith precedes regeneration, much like the Cals see the scriptural order as regeneration precedes faith.

 

Born of flesh (our works), born of blood (lineage), born of will (our determining OUTSIDE the influence of God). That is why it states 'but of God'.
Else how could Peter state:

However faith is not a work nor is God bending to the determining of our will without His influence.

God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble (1 Peter and James)
actaully, I kinda curious about these verses (on a personal note)

Even Job stated:

And many others like John 1

He came to those who SHOULD have received Him (but He knew they would not) but to as many as WOULD receive Him, TO THEM He gave the authority to become Children of God. Now it stopped there you might have a pretty good point but it doesn't. It goes on to say ...[even] to them who beleive on His name.

That fact this is stated twice shows this has an important message. The authority was given to them who believe, it does not state the authority was given so they could or would believe. Lest he be taken incorrectly he stated next that they could not get salvation by works, purposed lineage, nor the determining of will -

Now let me ask you to hold up here for a sec.
John stated that those who believe were given the authority to be...
But in the next verse John is stating that man has no authority to do, breed, nor command God regarding their salvation. We deserve damnation and eternal seperation. But, it is by His authority that men may obtain salvation and not any autority of men that we THINK we have. That is why they are Born (saved) by God (Gods authority) and not by man (mans authority in works)

However belief is not a work as Romans 4 declares, but the acknowledgment of Truth regardless of our ability or desire. The fact that we didn't obtain Gods truth of ourselves, but that God manifested it to us, positions us in a place to acknowledge or reject that which God has revealed (called) us to. But I'm getting ahead of myself

 

Believe it or not this is the Non-Cal position with a changing of only one word in #1. That being 'regeneration'.

We use the word "enable". We say enable because (like I stated before) if they are regenerated then they are saved and unable to fall into apostacy. However, that produces a problem when we come to the area of apostacy spoken of in scripture regarding those who we thought "..were of us.." but were not and fell away. This would be an impossibility in the non-believer does not seek God, and is even more an impossiblity if we truly beleive the believer can not loose his God given gift of salvation.

They sought God, apparently lived Godly lives but they were not actaully saved. How is this reconcilled with the non-believer DOES NOT seek after God?

But if man is enabled to choose and not actaully saved he is thereby able to DENY those truths which God revealed to them. (about His power, glory, person, Judgment to come (Rom 1:18 - ). We find that gives light to the scriptures pertaining to man being resposible (choice) to the Truth God reveals and held accountable for his choice of denying and or believing.

I think the problem lies in the fact that when it states that man will not seek after God - it is directly speaking to man without the influence of the divine grace will not seek after the one True God. But that seeking still is not the same as saving.
Jesus states many shall come to me in that day saying Lord, Lord, in your Name have we not done...but I will declare unto them "I never knew you". See, man doing it apart from God is the foundation of Pelagain and semi-Pelagian. The only difference is one the Semi-Pel gets to God, God rewards him with salvation. They came to God of their own accord and will - with NO divine help or grace.

 

The context does discribe salvation at it's completion when all things are made new. Being regenerated, we are a new creation in Christ. The definition does not change. However, I was not saying that the Mat passage is about salvation of the soul alone but the fruition of Gods promise concerning the full scope of salvation.

I stated it does. But it does not state (IMO) in any manner, that regeneration 'culminates' in salvation but declares it IS salvation.
Regeneration has it's definition and it is not as far as I can tell ever used in the manner of 'before but the manner of 'after'.

How do you see it as a 'regenerating work' BEFORE salvation in this verse since it is the only other verse in the whole of scripture that speaks of regeneration?

I agree totally with both of your points here. But I am of the opinion (which I believe biblical) that it speaks very loud regarding 'regeneration BEING salvation' and not something before it. I feel you would have to bring presupposition to the texts in order to come to that conclusion.

Yes, but that does not do away with my arguement nor the Non-Cal position at all. Actually it is maintained even more soundly. How so?

Because "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: ..." The word 'believeth' is in the Present Tense, Act., Part., which means the person who is at present activily continuing in belief - is born (saved) of God. This speaks of those who are 'saved' are the ones who are presently continuing in belief of Jesus being the Christ.

NOT ...
'Whosoever [would, will, or shall] believe that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...".

I believe greatly in the inspiration of scripture (not that you don't, so please don't get me wrong) but I do beleive that God knew how to write if He wanted to, the 'would, will, or shall' since He found it necessary to do so in many other places in scripture. The act of presently continuing in belief establishes that they have already believed and are thus presently continuing it what has already been established.

 

Um, still waiting for an answer.

 

Well, if regeneration is salvation as I stated previously.
Lydia most definately was NOT saved the moment God opened her heart.

I beleive the scripture is speaking of when God is revealing truth and allowing her the choice (open her heart - or allowed her to see) to either recieve the Word of God as Truth which were revealed through Pauls preaching unto regeneration/born-again/salvation.

or

reject that Truth as a lie and try to earn your own salvation through your works.

God opened her heart but she either had to receive Gods word or reject it. God allowed her to have knowledge but she had to believe.recieve it as truth or reject it as a lie.

We call it being 'enabled' by God.
"Enabled" to accept or reject the truths God reveals to each person.

 

Tom Butler asked:

Earlier on page 4 I gave this answer which, I think answered your questions. Since it was in a lengthy post it was proabably easy to miss.

In short, in the case of both Cornelius and Lydia, we have people who have believed the revelation they have previously received about the true God. When they hear the message of Christ, they are illuminated by the Holy Spirit to understand and receive the gospel of Christ. So the opening of the heart is not regeneration, but it is illumination. The specific words used to describe Lydia are also used by Luke in his gospel to describe the disciples on the road to Emmaus. Verse 31 on Luke 24 says "their eyes were opened and they recognized him". Here again were two people who were believers in Jesus but they did not understand his why he had died and they were not aware that he had risen. They were illuminated to understand it when Jesus revealed himself to them. In all of these cases the individuals involved are believers whose knowledge is deepened to understand the truth about Jesus and they receive that truth. The opening of their minds is not regeneration, but it is illumination.

BTW, I agree with the things Allan is posting in this thread. Thanks for the input.

 

Its great to "see" you too brother. How is the church start? God is growing our church according to His divine plan. and for His glory.

You have not convinced me about faith not being given by God. I still believe faith is a gift from God, and that is only given to the elect. I qualify that with "saving" faith.

3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

He caused us to be born again. Ok bro. Go to work on that and tell me i'm wrong. Great to "see" you again. You probably will not "see" much of me however. By the grace of God i'm busy.