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The LORD vs the Lord

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by HisMercy, Apr 19, 2004.

  1. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Eric B,

    What does "it is one name" mean? I'm not sure what you are referring to. There is only one name. JESUS. Was Paul literally the father of Timothy? No. Yet, Paul calls him his son. Is anything too difficult for the LORD? The SON is the flesh of the FATHER. Jesus, being flesh and blood prayed as our example, our model that we are not to rely on flesh and blood. The Word of God shows that "right hand" means power. To take it literally would lead to misunderstanding.
     
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    HisMercy, who is Jesus talking about when he talks about His father, as he does here:
    And when Jesus said on the cross he commended his spirit to God the Father, is Jesus pretending there is another being who is the Father God when, all along, as you believe, there really isn't?
     
  3. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Yeah, and if "right hand" simply means "power", then what is that saying? That He was simply using His own power? That would be redundant.
    How about "the right hand of power?" (Mark 14:62, Lk. 22:69)
     
  4. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which IS in heaven."

    John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"

    1Peter 2:21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:"

    Eric B,

    Psalms 139:10 "even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me."

    Psalms 138:7 "..and thy right hand shall save me."

    Psalms 16:8 "I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved."

    David could only say he would not be moved because the LORD is his power.
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    HisMercy, you did not explain how that verse I quoted is possible if Jesus and the Father are the same Being. And there are many others like it.

    Who was Jesus praying to when he prayed in the Garden or elsewhere? He was not praying to himself, or is that what you believe?
     
  6. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    God manifest in flesh not only to fulfill his death on the cross but to be our role model, our example. 1Peter 2:21
     
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    HisMercy, you did not answer my question. I did not ask why Jesus came to earth, I asked this (which was partly a repetition of an earlier question you did not answer).

    Marcia asked HisMercy:
     
  8. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    The Word answers your question but you didn't discern it.

    1Peter 2:21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps."
     
  9. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    Sorry His Mercy,

    1Peter 2:21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps."
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Does not answer Marcias' question.

    If you "see" an answer there perhaps you should spell it out for those of us who are less informed than you.

    Tam
     
  10. MEE

    MEE <img src=/me3.jpg>

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    Tam, possibly this will help explain what HisMercy is meaning.

    Quote by J.L. Hall:
    Did Jesus pray to Himself ? No, not when we understand that Jesus was both God and man. In His deity Jesus did not pray, for God does not need to pray to anyone. As a man, Jesus prayed to God, not to his humanity (7). He did not pray to Himself as humanity, but to the one true God, to the same God who dwelled in His humanity and who also inhabits the universe. No further explanation is given, and none is needed. Does Jesus pray now since his exaltation ? The answer is no. He prayed in the days of His flesh (Hebrews 5:7). The work of the mediation was finished through His death on the cross at Calvary (Hebrews 9:14-15). There is no more sacrifice for sins, for once and for all time His blood was shed for the remission of sins (Hebrews 10:12). Unlike the Old Testament priests, he does not continually offer sacrifices for sins. There is no more offering, but there remains remission of sins for those who repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10:18, Acts 2:38). His present role as intercessor consists not only of daily prayers but the application of the benefit of the cross to our lives (Romans 8:34; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:1-2).

    Jesus said, "At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again I leave the world and go to the Father" (John 16:26-28). Jesus does not pray now, but as God He hears and answers prayers prayed in His name.


    MEE [​IMG]
     
  11. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    So was there one "being" in the garden and another "being" in heaven??

    Tam,

    :confused: :eek: :rolleyes:
     
  12. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    No, they're not separate BEINGS; it's one being who can manifest Himself in more than one person. He is everywhere (Heaven and earth), but to be seen on earth and die for man, He had to become a man. Yet there was still God the Father in Heaven.
     
  13. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Sorry, but this makes no Biblical sense at all, and neither does the comment by Hall. One being who manifests himself into more than one being or form is like the Hindu Brahman -- one ultimate god manifested into many gods. :(

    So Jesus as man was praying to himself as God -- very strange. This rather contorted explanation still has Jesus praying to himself or to a ghost of himself if "God" is manifesting more than one form at a time. However, this overlooks the fact that even though Jesus was praying as man, he was still God at the time. Jesus never cast aside his deity.

    It also does not explain Jesus being baptized while the HS descended and God spoke, all at the same time, unless the explanation is that God manifested himself in all 3 "forms" simultaneously. Is that how you see God? Manifesting in forms simultaneously?
     
  14. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    tamborine lady and Marcia,

    Does Jesus, who is God, who is all knowing, all powerful need to pray for himself? He prayed in order to lead by example, be our role model. God had to become flesh in order for man to relate to him and in order for Him to be our example so that we can follow in his steps. How can man relate to Spirit?

    Eric,

    I agree with most of what you said.

    Marcia,

    You said it makes no biblical sense. Heaven is His throne and the earth is his footstool. Where is God not found? You said Jesus never cast aside his deity. Why does one who is deity NEED to pray?

    The angel of the LORD is another form of God manifesting Himself. The pillar of cloud and pillar of fire are forms in which God manifests Himself. The burning bush was a manifestation of God. Jesus was a manifestation of God in flesh.

    Mark 16:12 "After that he (Jesus) appeared in another form unto two of them as they walked, and went into the country." What makes no biblical sense? There are examples after examples of God manifesting in various forms throughout the Word of God. It makes no sense because you are leaning on your own understanding. The natural man cannot understand spiritual matters.

    1Cor. 1:25 "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    The angel of the Lord is not a manifestation, but an actual being. Jesus as man did need to pray. He was 100% man and 100% God. Also, since God is spirit and Jesus was raised in a resurrection body, we know he cannot be God the Father because God does not have a body.

    To say that Jesus was not really praying (which is what I think you are saying because he could not pray to himself) is deceptive as people thought he was praying to God the Father. Jesus is declared the Son of God -- you cannot be both the Father and the Son. Such convoluted teachings and beliefs would not be from God.

    The Mark 16 passage does not mean that Jesus appeared as someone else -- he was still Jesus and he was alive and real. This is referring to the story of Jesus appearing after his resurrection to the two going to Emmaus in Lk. 24:13ff. Keep in mind that that part of Mk 16 does not appear in many manuscripts and we are not sure it was in the original writings. Even if it was, that passage does not mean Jesus appeared as someone else. After his incarnation, he was never a disembodied form. This would be denying the bodily resurrection and would be leaning toward the heresy of docetism.

    Jesus said that his Father sent him; this would be a deceptive statement if Jesus and God are the same being. Neither Jesus nor God the Father would be deceptive like this.
     
  16. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    But I didn't say He manifested Himself as more than one being. You and/or someone else keep describing more than one "being, and I keep denying it. God is one being, or you unwittingly confess to more than one God. The term the creeds used to address the distinctness within God has been "person", and this you and others seem to be generalzing into "being", but that is wrong, and would have been rejected by the orthodox creeds, though some even back then thought that was what that language led to.
    The much disputed "manifestation" is used because since God cannot be contained by space, any appearance on earth is a manifestation, and it is used for Christ's incarnation in 1 Tim.3:16. And it is not "three forms", but the one God in the flesh (physical), and in the spirit (invisible), and yes, it can be simultaneous, as it was, as in the baptism as you cited.
    That's all I was trying to say. I am not oneness, but I think they do have a point in that sometimes the orthodox do tend to pull the three too far apart (e.g. "three beings"; some go as far as to liken it to three men in unity! :eek: ) It is hard to get the members of the Godhead in their right perspective, because this doctrine is so natually mysterious.
     
  17. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    The angel of the Lord is a manifestation(another form) of God. To deny that would be denying what is written in the Word.

    1Tim. 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,..."

    Matthew 1:23 "..and they shall call his name Immanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

    Why does one who is 100% God need to pray? God doesn't have a body as we understand body, but for a time He did manifest in flesh as it is written. I didn't say Jesus wasn't praying. He was but not for his own benefit but for OURS! I am both a father, son and husband. Your statement and belief limits God.

    Mark 16 says "another form." The disciples didn't recognize him did they? God reveals himself in many forms, that doesn't mean those different forms aren't God.

    1Cor. 8:6 "but to us there is but one God, the Father.." I think you are confusing deception of Christ's words with the understanding of his spiritual language (parables). As it is written, true worshippers worship the Father. Those who worshipped Jesus Christ recognized him as God.

    Eric B,

    Once again I agree with what you have said. One thing regarding your last comment. "It is hard to get the members of the Godhead in their right perspective because this doctrine is so mysterious." The trinity doctrine is confusing and God is not the author of confusion.
     
  18. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Yes, God appeared in the flesh; that was Jesus, God the Son and the Son of God. Jesus not only came in the flesh but was also man. He added humanity to his deity.

    The fact that you are husband, father and son does not prove the Oneness doctrine.

    Jesus said his father sent him; that is deceptive if it's not true. Jesus expected that to be taken literally; he was talking mostly to uneducated people and they would have taken it for what he was saying. You still have not explained that.

    I disagree that the trinity is confusing -- it may not be totally understandable, but we would have to be God to totally understand Him. Just because something is mysterious or difficult does not make it untrue.

    I understand it enough to believe it completely, as have Christians for 2,000 years. There are tons of books and articles about the trinity that clearly explain the trinity. It is not esoteric. Besides, I believe the Bible clearly teaches it and I think I posted some articles earlier that do that.
     
  19. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    Marcia,

    What you aren't seeing is that there is but one God, the Father. If the words of the bible are to be understood literally, it would be one of the most absurd books around. Do trees have hands to clap?(Isa. 55:12) Do trees have kings?(Judges 9:8). Did Jesus literally mean to eat his body and drink his blood? No. He spoke in parables. It doesn't matter that he was speaking to mostly uneducated people. Why do you think that was so? Perhaps, because he knew the "educated"(Pharisees) people believed they already knew the answers to everything. That is why he says we need to be converted into little children so that we depend on him for knowledge and understanding.

    It isn't a matter of totally understanding God but a matter of recognizing his identity. I believe we can have all understanding because it is written in 1Tim. 2:7 "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things."

    I don't agree the trinity doctrine is clear. I have asked many trinitarians what the doctrine teaches and I have received various explanations.

    I'm not trying to prove the "Oneness" doctrine. I only am sharing what has already been written in the Word of God.
     
  20. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Yeah, me too.

    Where the Bible speaks literally, it is literal. Obviously in poetic passages like the trees clapping their hands, it's not literal.

    Parables are clearly stated and have identifying characteristics.

    When Jesus says he is doing not his will but the will of the Father who sent him, he is not speaking a parable or a poem. When Jesus said he commended his spirit to his Father on the cross, that was not parable or poem.

    And just because the Christians you asked had different ways of explaining the Trinity does not make the Trinity untrue. That is called the fallacy of hasty generalization.
     
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