Featured The meaning of "dead" in terms of spiritually dead?

IF you hold to common grace applied towards all by the lord, have the funny situation in which sinners are enabled/quickened to come to Christ, but also stay spritual dead in their sins seem time!

For God would grant them temp quickening, then hope they make right decision before reverting to spiritually dead again!

 

I'm sorry but this is a mutilation of scripture. Those verses don't say that at all. They say;
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
I have news for you my friend; Neither are the saved subject to the Law. because we are under grace not the Law

I think maybe you should review that in the Bible. You have come up with a false concept that just isn't there.

I suppose I could if I wanted to deceive myself, I could do just as you have here. I could read into the text what isn't there to support any doctrine.
MB

 

tom just took the plain and lietral meaning of the text, in context of pauline theology, how about you?

 

Irresistible grace is awesome we should support it, not work against it. Preventing grace is not a good thing and not Christian like.

Romans 7 :
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[Or in the flesh] a slave to the law of sin.


1 Corinthians 9:27
No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

There is no amount of quickening that is going to make it easy. We will always be at war that is why we can't trust it, we are to trust in God over our own understanding. We are to beat our body into submission and not wait on God, God word tells us to and leads us.

We are not to practice sin, so we are to practice righteousness until God tells us good and faithful servant. So they will see our good deeds and praise our Father in heaven. We are Christ ambassadors.

We are saved by grace through faith. The wages of our sin is death, that is the cost, that is why we are saved by grace, because we don't have to pay.

This faith without deeds is dead, and this faith without love is worthless.

We are told through scripture to trust in God and not our self and trust in God is not a work.

 

Not true at all His explanation of it isn't sound at all nor literal.
MB

 

Tom, contrary to those on this board who believe man is not completely fallen in his nature, your understanding is correct. The reason that Arminians cannot accept the plain normative rendering of the text is because of the primacy of their presupposition that faith precedes regeneration. Some claim that faith and regeneration are simultaneous, but that is not true. Salvation is all of God -- from regeneration to resulting faith. The sinner is absolutely incapable of believing apart from being regenerated. 1 Cor. 2:14 and Rom. 8:7-8 eliminate any ambiguity about this.

 

Herald never responded to John 5:25 which absolutely refutes his view.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The word of God is quick and powerful and is able to speak to spiritually dead persons. And if they will listen and believe they will be made alive.

Jesus did not say a person has to be regenerated to hear his voice, he said THE DEAD shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live. That is, following or after they listen to Jesus and believe his words they are made alive.

There is not a single verse in all of scripture to support regeneration preceding faith. It cannot be shown. There are at least half a dozen verses that all show faith precedes regeneration.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The scriptures do not say you must have life that you can believe, they say you must believe that you might have life.

Calvinism says the exact opposite of scripture.

If you say that the dead cannot hear Jesus, then you are saying Jesus does not have the power to speak to the dead.

2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

MB

Tom has it correct.You do not seem to have a handle on this chapter at all.
They say;
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

All of the saved are exactly subject to God's law. We are no longer subject to the laws penalty. God has put the law in our heart.

You are expressing confused ideas, not him.

Looks as if that is exactly what you have done:thumbsup::wavey:

 

Winman,

You ripped a verse out of context. The greater context of the passage has to do with the authority of the Son of God.

[19]*So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. [20]*For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. [21]*For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. [22]*The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, [23]*that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. [24]*Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[25]*“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. [26]*For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. [27]*And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. [28]*Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice [29]*and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

(John 5:19-29 ESV)

"For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will." -- The Son gives life to whom He will.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." -- You missed a grand Arminian talking point here. "See? See?! Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life! Where is regeneration in this verse?" Well, I am glad you asked. You will not find one Calvinist -- not one -- who will say that sinners are exempt from hearing and believing the Gospel. The Gospel is the means of salvation. But no one is capable of believing while in their sins (Rom. 8:6-7; 1 Cor. 2:14). This is why you must look at the whole counsel of God on this subject and not just cherry pick verses without understanding the greater context.

"and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." -- We know that salvation is not according to works, so obviously our Lord is not basing eternal life on good works. But He is basing eternal life on doing good. What type of doing good?

[29]*Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
(John 6:29 ESV)

 

I agree Jesus gives life to whom he wills, and that is to those that hear him and believe. That is what Jesus is telling you in John 5:25.

Jesus did not say the "living" shall hear his voice, he said "the dead". And those spiritually dead persons who actively hear him and believe shall be made alive.

John 20:31 is as clear as it gets, it tells us the book of John was written so that we might believe, and that believing we might have life. All scripture shows a person first believes and has life afterward.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here are two more verses that both say that whosoever believes shall not perish but HAVE (following as a result of) everlasting or eternal life.

I could show you MANY more scriptures that all say a person must first believe before they have life.

You cannot show a single verse that supports a person has life before faith.

 

God the father predestined jesus to die for the sins of His people, the sinners the father willed to come to jesus to get saved, and the Holy Spirit enabled/quickings to sallavtion those whom will hear the message of the cross and will be able to be saved!

ALl the trinity involved in getting a sinner saved!

ALL we can do is believe on Jesus whom we heard about, and even that is a gift from god towards us!

 

Matthew 21 :
The Parable of the Tenants

33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

John 7:30
At this they tried to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his hour had not yet come.

John 7:44
Some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him.

John 8:20
He spoke these words while teaching in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.

John 10:39
Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

John 7 :
16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?”

20 “You are demon-possessed,” the crowd answered. “Who is trying to kill you?”

John 8 :
37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[Or presence. Therefore do what you have heard from the Father.]”

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[Some early manuscripts “If you are Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

Luke 11 :
47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.

1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]

Jeremiah 23 :

20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand it clearly.
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

God gave them over to their own evil desires to bring salvation to the world, but praise be to God through Jesus Christ.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

2 Corinthians 3:
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”