The model of seminary becoming worldly?

BUDDY!
I am proud of you . . . . 'cause I have to agree with this: "follow Jesus Christ." That aas thing . . . doesn't make me proud of you.

Now if they are following God . . . you now say that they are not healthy . . .

This country boy just don't get that one bit . . . Now had you put God first and kept him there . . . I coulda been proud all the way along.

But, you put 'he' first and then followed up with what sounded like an obligatory "follow Jesus Christ."

I have really good friend . . . quit his job, went to seminary, works nights, his wife takes care of the children, and he often studies all night - she says: "God called us to seminary to go into ministry."

Sacrifice is part of the calling . . . IMHO.

 

The fact is that several schools which once were into online education are not doing it any longer. It is a lot of work and the students do not learn as much. A big by-product of the university is the personal interaction with professors and other students.

Typically when a person marries their grades go up.

 

==Which schools and why? Many Universities and Colleges, of all sizes, are turning to online/distance learning. Any attempt to downplay that "fact" is ignoring reality. As for it being alot of work, so? Since when is hard work a bad thing? As for online students not learning as much, well that is real subjective is it not? Some do learn alot, some do not learn alot. The same can be said with on campus students.

==And that means, what? Does that affect everything else? Where are your stats? Sources?

 

==I did not say it was "the only way", a person can become doctrinally sound through personal study. However here we are talking about a career in the ministry and official training (degree) showing the person has done detailed/advanced study in order to do their ministry correctly. Also people who enter the ministry apart from training often slip into error. Seminary trained people, who have been forced through their education into a detailed study of doctrine and history, are less likely to slip into error. Sure they may willfully walk into error but because of their training they are less likely to slip into it. Training is important. I just don't understanding why you, or others, argue against training. I just see no glory in ignorance.

==My answer here goes back to what I have said about slipping. It also goes back to what I have said about training.

==I don't agree. We are talking about detail training and study in God's Word. Saying those in ministry should have that is not worldly.

==Yea, it was tougher...:smilewinkgrin:

==Who said anything about Calvin or Edwards?

==Of course He still teaches. I believe He uses seminary education, in part, to train people for the ministry.

 

Some students are lazy and some are not. That is the reality of it. I moved 2000 miles to go to school. I moved about 1500 miles the first time. Some go 1/2 around the world. We have Americans who have to have their hand held and complain because they do not have time to study while they are watching TV and drinking beer.

How many first class schools have a doctoral program online? How many even have a master;'s program online? Ever notice how most online courses are rather simple things to teach?

Ever notice how many graduate students are from foreign countries? A few weeks ago I spoke with a senator personally about the problem. He answered me basically by saying that Americans want it easy and are not willing to pay the price.

I would never teach a class online? How would you like to teach say 50 students online and respond to 50 students online each week. I have better things ot do than write the same thing 50 times. I spend a lot of my time doing research so my students will benefitfrom that instead of playing secretary and typing online. One of my friends did it at a university for two years and said he said he would never do it again. Ther were two reasons hed gave: 1) the students do not learn as much and it is a lot of work on the computer to respond to the students questions each week. He types about 90 words/min.

Quite anumber of foreign students pay quite a price to come here and are surprised as the casualness of Americans. A few years ago a couple came from China to go to school here. If you want to learn you will pay whatever it takes if you value it.

If you want to get a real eye-opener take some time and read "The World Is Flat" by Tom Friedman.

How many foreign students have been educated online? Yet when they come so often they are way ahead of our students. They often pay quite a price to get her and then study hard while the Americans are playing at school. The American professors who retire are now being replaced by foreign born professors.

That is common knowledge. If you live in a college town it is about as common as knowing what a stop sign looks like.

 

==That is unfair and outdated thinking. Things change, methods change, we should change with them. Why not take advantage of new educational methods? Other than just a refusal to accept change there is no good reason.

Anyone who has ever done a degree (or courses) via distance learning knows very well that lazy people don't do well. Distance learning requires alot of self motivation and discipline. School is much easier on campus. I know I have done both.

==I don't know of many doctorates online. However Liberty University does offer a Doctor in Education online and I believe Regent University also offers some online. East Carolina University, NC State, and other schools in the UNC system offer graduate and undergraduate degrees/courses online. You will note that the degrees range in subject and it is not only "simple" courses that are taught online. Other State University systems are doing the same thing. All the community colleges in North Carolina, one of the best systems in the country, offer online courses or degrees.

So there goes your theory.

==I am currently working on a MA/History degree. The school I attend has a large undergraduate population from China. The graduate school, however, is made up of mostly American students (adult students). In fact I was even offered a chance to teach a undergraduate introduction to American History course to Chinese students. However I could not due to the fact that I had already accepted another position in the University.

American graduate students are not lazy. They are willing to do the work and pay for it. However they realize, as do many educators, that the methods of education are changing and that those changes have opened new doors. Now a student can earn a degree on campus, on line, or via a combo approach. O, and they are learning the material.

That is not a bad thing.

==Then you should not be in the field of education.

I have family and friends who teach online and oncampus classes. They are dedicated educators who do what they must to help their students learn the material and achieve their goals. They understand that online education has its place and serves its purpose. One of those family members is a retired Dean of, and current professor in, the School of Education in a major UNC school. He is a strong believer in online education.

I am glad many educators don't think like you, and the others you mentioned, do. I am going into education because I believe in helping people learn and achieve their goals. I am not interested in keeping things the way they are, or making it easy on myself. If I wanted an easy career I would have stayed where I was at. As a person who comes from an education family, who has many friends in education, and who is going into education, I can't help but find your entire attitude insulting.

Good day to you.

 

First, if the man is going to blame his wife and kids for not allowing him to go back to school, he has bigger problems than not getting his masters first.

Secondly, although #'s 1-3 above are true, if he is not the kind of husband who says "I am the head, you will listen, this conversation is over." Then he will likely consider facts 1-3. If he is the kind of husband who says that, then again, he's got more problems than the fact that he started a family before he started his masters.

I don't hang out with many single people on campus, most of my friends and associates are married. All but a few were married before they got here. Several have at least one kid. I have never heard any of them complain that they should have gotten their education done first and then started a family. I have heard some talk about wanting to wait until their education is over before having kids. BUT I have also talked to people who held that view, then had kids and did not regret having kids. These are all full time seminary students, full time husbands, and working usually 25+ hours per week besides school.

Actually, perhaps a better focus of our energy instead of should a man get married before continuing his education, is what kind of education should that man be getting in the first place? If you move your family to continue your education and you have a degree from a Bible college, or a BA in History, then more than likely you'll wind up at Starbucks or selling cell phones (probably the 2 most popular non-ministry positions at SBTS.) But if you have a degree in accounting, or computer sciences, or MIS, etc then you have a degree that will often allow you to work part time while supporting your family much easier than the $8/hr you get as a clerk at a hotel.

 

What you are considering is what I did.

If you decide to teach in a secular school you will be in the midst of a sea of students who are not believers. You can also provide a lot of encouragement to the Christians.

 

You said it well.

But, I will add - the online classes that I took were a waste of time and money.

Women are good for grades?

 

Martin, I'm not sure I agree. But assuming you are correct, is it preferable to walk into doctrinal error (deliberately?) rather than slip into it (accidentally?) ?

 

Remember people can get all their fancy,smanchy degrees all they want, But it doesn't mean a hill of beans to the LORD if He hasnt called or equipped them

 

Instead of spending time dating like before you were married your wife is now at home. When you are married you are around your spouse more and not so much time is spent on dating and trying to find ways to spend time together.

 

I am in education and would much rather spend my time studying and helping students. My time is spent studying so that I have something to give my students, rather than punching keys on a computer, when a secretary could do that. I meet with a lot of students, and in addition, I spend about five hours outside of class in preparation for every hour in class. Even when I taught high school I seldom spent less than 12 hours each day. A number of times I came down on Sat. To help students. So, could you explain to me how I could wisely spend the time God has given me with online classes instead. I live in the area of the US which has experienced the fastest growth in manufacturing. I do not know of one of those manufacturers who uses online training for their workers. My brother works for Toyota and they do not use online training for their workers. If it worked so well, those companies who are worth billions would certainly take a hard look at it.

A few years ago there were two professors who interviewed for a faculty position here and had done part of their doctorate online. They were very poorly prepared compared to those who were educated in a typical doctoral program.

The field I am in has been using computers since the early 1940s. When did they start using computers in your field? The field I am in developed iris recognition as well as microscopic devices used by the medical field to combat cancer. It also invented and developed the electron microscope. I guess that according to you we are very behind in education.
To teach the program I am in, would be much like training a man to fly a 747 online and then turning them loose to do their thing. Would be willing to let an online educated pilot fly you around the country?

Most of the graduate students at the university I am at are awarded a full tuition waiver and in addition receive a stipend of about $1140 per month. Any online programs that help a student like that?

 

. . . And if they don't "get all their fancy, smanchy (?) degrees" it won't "mean a hill of beans to the Lord if he hasn't called or equipped them." However, I had rather see a well-trained minister who is called by God than a poorly-trained minister who is called by God.

Bill

 

gb

You have some interesting statements . . . . I know what the computers were developed for in the early 1940's . . . Further that field of endeavor is now dominated by computers . . . Something tells me that is not the field of endeavor that you are in . . .

The fact that you spend 5 hours preparing for each lecture hour would also imply a newness to teaching (IMHO). I was easily past that by the 4th class . . . By the time I finished, I was usually down to about an hour per hour.

Saturday tutoring? Might I suggest online tutorial . . . aided by a telephone? The 30 plus minutes spent on the commute versus the 5 minutes booting the computer sure do make for an excessively long week.

That you would rather spend time studying and helping students is a most admirable trait on your part. May that never change.

 

I do not know that all seminaries are becoming worldly . . . but, I do know that many students claim to receive a much better spiritual tutelage during bible school than they do during seminary.