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The "Necessity" of the Virgin Birth

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Aaron, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It wasn't necessary. IOW, Christ could have been sinless even if God had prepared a body for Him in "the family way." The Virgin Birth is a sign only.
     
  2. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    A sign of what?
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Incorrect. The Virgin Birth is necessary because of the pre-existence of Christ. At conception, a new person comes into being (traducianism). If Christ was conceived normally, then it would be a completely new person. But Christ being God was eternal. He pre-existed. Therefore, he had to be virgin born.
     
  4. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    IMO, it is not our place to decide the "necessity" of this. Since God designed it as such, the Virgin Birth was de facto a necessity.

    Not to mention, I agree w/ PL.
     
  5. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    at 1:20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

    What part of "conceived" are we missing here?
     
  6. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    Christ's human body has always existed? I didn't know that - it's a new teaching to me.

    The virgin birth was not a necessity for God to fulfill his purpose.

    It WAS a necessity because God told us that it was how the Messiah would come. Since God cannot lie, He would not have given us that prophecy then gone against it. He could have chosen for the Messiah to show up out of a rock - that wouldn't have been a problem at all for God. But He told us the Messiah would come from a virgin, not a rock.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    New to me too. That's not what I said. A human consists of both immaterial and material. Christ has always existed, but did not have a body. When conception takes place, both the body and soul, the material and immaterial are created. If Jesus had had a normal human conception, it would have created both body and soul, and then when Jesus came into the body, you would have had a real schizophrenic -- two persons in one body. That is why the virgin birth is a theological necessity.

    Um, it would have been a huge problem because rocks don't bring forth humans. Only humans bring forth humans, and for Christ to atone for sin, he has to become flesh and blood (Hebrew 2, 4).
     
  8. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    Well, I certainly think that Jesus could have indwelt the newly created human body without yet another soul being created. I don't think that would have been a problem for the One who creates souls. :)

    I agree - yet God could have certainly chosen to do such. I agree that God placed an order and prophecy in place that the redeemer of all mankind would be one of them and as such, to say that Jesus was not of the flesh of any human that has existed denies prophecy. "Seed" is a physical thing - and Jesus would be of the "seed" of woman. That certainly says a lot to me.
     
  9. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    So, when is original sin imposed on the human birth? It can't be at conception. Jesus was fully God and fully man, yet without sin, because the very presence of God precludes the presence of sin.

    I can't argue any further because BaptistBoard rules forbid me..so half an argument is no argument at all, hence what I said earlier debate is pointless..............

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  10. PeterM

    PeterM Member

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    Christ's virgin birth is a necessity on (2) levels:

    1. It fulfills a specific prophecy that pointed to the coming Messiah. If Jesus was not born of a virgin (speaking literally, as some translate the terminology "young girl" which is an extremely poor rendering) He could not be the promised Messiah.

    2. The virgin birth is essential to Jesus being free from "original sin" that is passed down generationally in a "biological" sense. If Jesus is conceived in the "traditional" manner, He would have been subject to being born with a nature tainted with a sin nature. If that is accepted, then even if Jesus lived a "sinless" life behaviorally, He could not have gone to the cross as the perfect lamb of God, making atonement impossible.
     
  11. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff New Member

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    I don't know what IOW means but I disagree with this statement entirely.
     
  12. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    How is Jesus sinless when born to a sinful woman, called Mary? Was she also sinless? Did she miss original sin?

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff New Member

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    I think we as people within the contraints of time/space have a difficult understanding of certain things God talks about. We view time as linear. God does not. So I think the poster you're replying to is trying to incorporate Christophonies with preexistant body.
     
  14. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    Can't God make sinless human body for Jesus? If He can create a fully human body out of nothing, might He be able to do it with a human egg?
     
  15. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Now we have the possibility of a new creation within a shell........Hmm sounds something like the good Dr. was proposing in his book that everyone laughed at. Amazing how circular we can be, innit?

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  16. annsni

    annsni Administrator
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    Not circular at all. Yes, God CAN do it - but He showed us all through Scripture that He didn't.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Since it was a prophecy that it would take place, it was an absolute necessity, else if ONE prophecy of Christ went unfulfilled, He would not be the Christ.
     
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    How was a human being created from the dust of the earth? How could God create something out of nothing? Being born of a sinner is a piece of cake compared to these two.
     
  19. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Ann, if it so clear in scripture, why is there so much debate and book written about it?

    I may believe the fundamental truths, but they are not always that clear.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  20. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff New Member

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    I think you're delving into the realm of intrinsic impossibility. Like I said we view time with respect to a linear model. God doesn't. God sees time as a point. If something is already done can it be changed? So prophesy is reporting things that have already occured in Gods perspective but yet have to happen in our experience (for a lack of a better way of explaining it). The future is fixed and cannot change from this perspective.
     
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